The Footie Thread

[Swango1980]

This game still hasn't changed my mind that Dalot is my least favourite defender of all time.

Utd look very good, very comfortable and 2-0 up. So it is just typical of Utd that Rashford gets a red card and then right up against it from then on.

 

[Tashyboy]

Seems Utd went all er Spursy

 

[Pin-seeker]

Man Utd are SO bad.
Imagine their dressing room is full of egos that can’t back it up on the field.
Rashford has absolutely robbed a living.

 

[Billysboots]

Slightly miffed if I’m honest.

I thought the Rashford red was extremely harsh, even though I’m not his biggest fan. He’s merely stepped across his man, tried to shield the ball, has not even looked at the player, and the coming together is little more than accidental. And when the referee goes to his screen the first thing he is shown is a still image, followed by a slow motion replay. The game is neither played in freeze frame or slow time. Show the incident in real time, and only if the referee wants to see a slow motion replay should it be shown. Poor decision.

The Copenhagen penalty was equally harsh, and perhaps would not have been given in the Premier League. But then, I suppose, the same could have been said of the United penalty. Both were harsh. So that’s three questionable refereeing/VAR decisions.

My anger is spared for Copenhagen’s fourth. When you’re a man down, under pressure and needing to escape with no worse than a draw, then don’t mess around on the edge of your own area with five to go. United had an opportunity to clear their lines, failed to do so, and paid the price.

That’s not down to ETH. That’s the players making poor decisions.

 

[clubchamp98]

Slightly miffed if I’m honest.

I thought the Rashford red was extremely harsh, even though I’m not his biggest fan. He’s merely stepped across his man, tried to shield the ball, has not even looked at the player, and the coming together is little more than accidental. And when the referee goes to his screen the first thing he is shown is a still image, followed by a slow motion replay. The game is neither played in freeze frame or slow time. Show the incident in real time, and only if the referee wants to see a slow motion replay should it be shown. Poor decision.

The Copenhagen penalty was equally harsh, and perhaps would not have been given in the Premier League. But then, I suppose, the same could have been said of the United penalty. Both were harsh. So that’s three questionable refereeing/VAR decisions.

My anger is spared for Copenhagen’s fourth. When you’re a man down, under pressure and needing to escape with no worse than a draw, then don’t mess around on the edge of your own area with five to go. United had an opportunity to clear their lines, failed to do so, and paid the price.

That’s not down to ETH. That’s the players making poor decisions.

Maybe Rashford watched the Newcastle game and thought that it’s not a foul anymore to elbow someone.

I agree very harsh but was it for the elbow or the rake down his leg.

 

[Swango1980]

Slightly miffed if I’m honest.

I thought the Rashford red was extremely harsh, even though I’m not his biggest fan. He’s merely stepped across his man, tried to shield the ball, has not even looked at the player, and the coming together is little more than accidental. And when the referee goes to his screen the first thing he is shown is a still image, followed by a slow motion replay. The game is neither played in freeze frame or slow time. Show the incident in real time, and only if the referee wants to see a slow motion replay should it be shown. Poor decision.

The Copenhagen penalty was equally harsh, and perhaps would not have been given in the Premier League. But then, I suppose, the same could have been said of the United penalty. Both were harsh. So that’s three questionable refereeing/VAR decisions.

My anger is spared for Copenhagen’s fourth. When you’re a man down, under pressure and needing to escape with no worse than a draw, then don’t mess around on the edge of your own area with five to go. United had an opportunity to clear their lines, failed to do so, and paid the price.

That’s not down to ETH. That’s the players making poor decisions.

For the red card, the referee was right beside the incident. He saw it and had no intention to give a red.

But it is a red these days, because the laws are designed so that VAR can get involved anytime studs hit shin. Even if it is never a leg breaker and a complete accident. I mean, who'd have thought such a horrific challenge would ever be possible in a game where people kick a ball with their feet!?

The laws have also been designed to give so many more penalties for accidental handball. So if ref doesn't give it, another chance for VAR to earn their salary. Both penalties were a joke, under laws that would be sensible.

But even as game progressed and we were 2 nil up, I'm always weary of VAR. VAR seems to get involved in so many games now, obviously for important decisions. I'm so tired of it, that I'm now ready to admit I would love it gone entirely. Even if it means on field ref makes a howler against my team, so be it. Before game, I loved football. VAR was an addition that I just didn't need to enhance my love of the game, and I really hate it.

 

[Swango1980]

Maybe Rashford watched the Newcastle game and thought that it’s not a foul anymore to elbow someone.

I agree very harsh but was it for the elbow or the rake down his leg.

Studs on ankle, VAR always wants red. Great for freeze frame

Copenhagen player looked to elbow Hojlund. But as we now know, nothing wrong with that.

 

[Billysboots]

For the red card, the referee was right beside the incident. He saw it and had no intention to give a red.

But it is a red these days, because the laws are designed so that VAR can get involved anytime studs hit shin. Even if it is never a leg breaker and a complete accident. I mean, who'd have thought such a horrific challenge would ever be possible in a game where people kick a ball with their feet!?

The laws have also been designed to give so many more penalties for accidental handball. So if ref doesn't give it, another chance for VAR to earn their salary. Both penalties were a joke, under laws that would be sensible.

But even as game progressed and we were 2 nil up, I'm always weary of VAR. VAR seems to get involved in so many games now, obviously for important decisions. I'm so tired of it, that I'm now ready to admit I would love it gone entirely. Even if it means on field ref makes a howler against my team, so be it. Before game, I loved football. VAR was an addition that I just didn't need to enhance my love of the game, and I really hate it.

I hate VAR with a passion. It was intended to eradicate errors by officials but it simply hasn’t. The errors are still there, many of them in the VAR intervention. Referees have become lazy, and the mistakes remain.

Get rid of it, please. It’s the main talking point far too often. And if it’s the main talking point then, after all this time, it quite clearly isn’t fit for purpose.

I yearn for the old days.

 

[nickjdavis]

I hate VAR with a passion. It was intended to eradicate errors by officials but it simply hasn’t. The errors are still there, many of them in the VAR intervention. Referees have become lazy, and the mistakes remain.

Get rid of it, please. It’s the main talking point far too often. And if it’s the main talking point then, after all this time, it quite clearly isn’t fit for purpose.

I yearn for the old days.

Must admit...I'm tending towards this sort of opinion myself. Let subjective decision making be the domain of humans in real time. If technology is involved at all let it be for objective decisions such as ball over the line and offsides....why we still haven't adopted the same offside technology that UEFA/FIFA use is beyond me.

VAR has robbed the game of its spontaneity....it is crushing the life from the game and as you say, becoming more talked about than the game itself....and that is not a good thing.

 

[4LEX]

Another bonkers game! What was Rashford playing at? Total madness to do anything risky in your own half, away from home in a game where you're crusing. The first 75 minutes were probably the best I've seen Man Utd all season but this really says everything as it was still miles off the level needed. Big ask to win in Turkey and then get something at home to Bayern. A lot of teams would take it easy in the last game once the group is won, not sure they will though.

Disappointed in Newcastle and Howe last night for setting up way too defensive, he got outcoached in both games.

 

[Tashyboy]

I gave up with VAR a couple of seasons ago. I just couldn’t see what it was bringing to the game. If anything more confusion than clarity. Peoples tolerance to VAR wains at different stages, of late it seems more people have had enough.

 

[Swango1980]

I gave up with VAR a couple of seasons ago. I just couldn’t see what it was bringing to the game. If anything more confusion than clarity. Peoples tolerance to VAR wains at different stages, of late it seems more people have had enough.

It is interesting hearing the reactions last night on Rashford. So many believe it is absolutely not a red. A few think it was a red.

We were told VAR would only get involved in clear errors, not subjective decisions. But that is blatantly incorrect. It gets involved when the subjective view of ONE VAR person decides what they think is correct or not. So it is subjective when you talk to the masses, but when you speak to an individual they are 100% one way or another.

As a result, I just don't think it should be used the way it is for penalties or red cards. Either the on field ref should decide if they need to see something again (albeit they may not review something they should), or teams get 2 reviews a half, and lose them if they fail.

But preferably, it can just bog off and we can enjoy being in the moment while watching live football.

 

[Bdill93]

I very much prefer football without VAR but they wont go backwards now - and that is a shame!

I do think though that if were using technology we should go whole hog and get every angle and line covered. Automatic offside software, hawkeye for everywhere around the pitch. It cant be that hard can it?

 

[Orikoru]

I hate VAR with a passion. It was intended to eradicate errors by officials but it simply hasn’t. The errors are still there, many of them in the VAR intervention. Referees have become lazy, and the mistakes remain.

Get rid of it, please. It’s the main talking point far too often. And if it’s the main talking point then, after all this time, it quite clearly isn’t fit for purpose.

I yearn for the old days.

Same poor decisions take 4 minutes longer to arrive at. And referees have definitely got worse because they don't trust themselves to make decisions anymore. They know they have the VAR crutch to rely upon. The rules have been changed beyond recognition to suit what can actually be reviewed on a screen rather than suit what is fair and understandable for players and fans. The game of football is in the worst state it's ever been.

 

[RichA]

It is interesting hearing the reactions last night on Rashford. So many believe it is absolutely not a red. A few think it was a red.

We were told VAR would only get involved in clear errors, not subjective decisions. But that is blatantly incorrect. It gets involved when the subjective view of ONE VAR person decides what they think is correct or not. So it is subjective when you talk to the masses, but when you speak to an individual they are 100% one way or another.

As a result, I just don't think it should be used the way it is for penalties or red cards. Either the on field ref should decide if they need to see something again (albeit they may not review something they should), or teams get 2 reviews a half, and lose them if they fail.

But preferably, it can just bog off and we can enjoy being in the moment while watching live football.

The survey of 4000 that I saw was split 55/45. Probably partisan voters on both sides, but more than a few agreeing with the red card.
I'm not a United supporter but generally want British teams to win in Europe, so like to think I'm relatively neutral. I thought it was more reckless than clumsy or accidental and can't see much to complain about with any of the decisions last night, which didn't really favour either team.

 

[Swango1980]

Same poor decisions take 4 minutes longer to arrive at. And referees have definitely got worse because they don't trust themselves to make decisions anymore. They know they have the VAR crutch to rely upon. The rules have been changed beyond recognition to suit what can actually be reviewed on a screen rather that suit what is fair and understandable for players and fans. The game of football is in the worst state it's ever been.

Very much agree.

The intention of VAR was to get more correct decisions and give assistance to the onfield officials. Yes, it is bound to be true for offside decisions, with the exception of one or 2 horror calls over last few years. But the downside is that it has killed the flow of the game, and even if your team scores you doubt it will be allowed to stand, even 4 or 5 minutes after the ball went in the net. Ironically, however, I'm pretty sure the faith in officials has never been so low. VAR has destroyed their reputation. On field referees will get no praise for making a big decision correct, because it isn't a big call if VAR can technically bail you out if you were wrong. And I actually believe that they are more scared to make big calls now, and use VAR as a means to make the big call if required. It is more embarrassing give a red and then told to retract it, than to just say you didn't see it fully, and let VAR make the call for you. And I doubt there is any real respect for VAR officials at all. The expectation is they get 100% of calls correct, but inevitably they will be well below that threshold as they often make subjective calls fans will disagree with. So many hate VAR as a result.

The officials / governing bodies seem to be sanitizing and killing the game now. The game should always move forward, but it doesn't mean all changes make the game better. What is next? Should we give players a crutch to assist them in making less mistakes as well? Hook them up with ear pieces and have a spotter constantly telling them what is all around them. Maybe have a psychologist give them a bit of a boost when their head goes down, and play Eye of the Tiger when you want them to up the tempo? At least that wouldn't destroy the flow of the game, like VAR. Unless players were able to stop the game, like officials, because they wanted 2 or 3 minutes to chat to their coach and check to see if they made the right pass or not.

 

[Orikoru]

Very much agree.

The intention of VAR was to get more correct decisions and give assistance to the onfield officials. Yes, it is bound to be true for offside decisions, with the exception of one or 2 horror calls over last few years. But the downside is that it has killed the flow of the game, and even if your team scores you doubt it will be allowed to stand, even 4 or 5 minutes after the ball went in the net. Ironically, however, I'm pretty sure the faith in officials has never been so low. VAR has destroyed their reputation. On field referees will get no praise for making a big decision correct, because it isn't a big call if VAR can technically bail you out if you were wrong. And I actually believe that they are more scared to make big calls now, and use VAR as a means to make the big call if required. It is more embarrassing give a red and then told to retract it, than to just say you didn't see it fully, and let VAR make the call for you. And I doubt there is any real respect for VAR officials at all. The expectation is they get 100% of calls correct, but inevitably they will be well below that threshold as they often make subjective calls fans will disagree with. So many hate VAR as a result.

The officials / governing bodies seem to be sanitizing and killing the game now. The game should always move forward, but it doesn't mean all changes make the game better. What is next? Should we give players a crutch to assist them in making less mistakes as well? Hook them up with ear pieces and have a spotter constantly telling them what is all around them. Maybe have a psychologist give them a bit of a boost when their head goes down, and play Eye of the Tiger when you want them to up the tempo? At least that wouldn't destroy the flow of the game, like VAR. Unless players were able to stop the game, like officials, because they wanted 2 or 3 minutes to chat to their coach and check to see if they made the right pass or not.

I don't really recall, but I wonder if the refs themselves were in favour of VAR or not before it came in. And I also wonder if their opinion has changed. As you say, it undermines them constantly. If you miss a penalty shout, here's VAR to make you look silly. If you get the penalty shout right but had to spend 3 minutes reviewing it, why didn't you have the confidence to back yourself and give it straight away? It's lose-lose for them. I would like to see it scaled right back somehow, something they only use two or three times a game for actual major incidents that the ref hasn't seen. But it won't happen. I can see them getting rid of the onfield ref altogether before that.

 

[Swango1980]

The survey of 4000 that I saw was split 55/45. Probably partisan voters on both sides, but more than a few agreeing with the red card.
I'm not a United supporter but generally want British teams to win in Europe, so like to think I'm relatively neutral. I thought it was more reckless than clumsy or accidental and can't see much to complain about with any of the decisions last night, which didn't really favour either team.

With the way the laws of the game are, I agree it is a red card. Because I've seen players from other teams get red for similar.

But I don't agree with the laws of the game on this one. I think you give a red card if a player has done something dangerous, when they really should have known better. When they should have known they could severely hurt an opponent, thus the red card is punishment, and hopefully makes them think twice about doing it again in the future.

But in this case, that wasn't true. Rashford did what every other footballer does, and try and get themselves between the ball and the opponent. 99% of the time, there is no contact with anyone or contact happens at a slightly different point of time. Maybe he trods on the opponents foot, maybe the opponent treads on his foot, etc. But last night,. in this moment of time, his studs make contact with the ankle. As VAR can freeze this image, make it look just as bad as a high wreckless lunge with no care for safety, they do so and force the referees hand. A referee who was pretty much on the spot in real time and did not see it as a red. Next time Rashford plays again, no doubt he will still make similar actions. And I'm sure we will have players for every team do the same thing in pretty much every game, it is just most of the time they just won't happen to make contact with an ankle.

Football is a game where players predominantly use their feet, and the ball is usually on the ground. It is inevitable that the sole of a players foot will occasionally make contact with another players ankle. Sometimes this might also be painful. But a lot of the time it is a complete accident, and to me an occupational hazard of being a footballer. Dishing out reds for accidents, when it is fair to say they had no idea they could hurt someone for their action, is harsh in the extreme. VAR is deciding football games as far as I see it

 

[Swango1980]

I don't really recall, but I wonder if the refs themselves were in favour of VAR or not before it came in. And I also wonder if their opinion has changed. As you say, it undermines them constantly. If you miss a penalty shout, here's VAR to make you look silly. If you get the penalty shout right but had to spend 3 minutes reviewing it, why didn't you have the confidence to back yourself and give it straight away? It's lose-lose for them. I would like to see it scaled right back somehow, something they only use two or three times a game for actual major incidents that the ref hasn't seen. But it won't happen. I can see them getting rid of the onfield ref altogether before that.

Not sure, although I know Mike Dean, for one, said he hated it when VAR came in. I'm sure he wasn't the only one.

Funny how everyone complained about the time it took to make decisions when it first came in. It did seem to speed up (although still too long) as time went on. Then they make the horror call against Liverpool. After that, it seems they are now twice as long as they had ever been before.

 

[nickjdavis]

Disappointed in Newcastle and Howe last night for setting up way too defensive, he got outcoached in both games.

Howe was limited in his team choices though....8 of the 25 man CL squad were unavailable due to injury/suspension. The only regular starters on the subs bench (only named 8 on the bench) were Almiron and Gordon. Two of the other subs were keepers. Three of the remaining subs, Miley, DeBolle, Parkinson are 17,20 and 18 yo respectively, and only Miley I believe has seen competetive first team action previously. That left Dummet as the only experienced player on the bench.

Botman, Targett, Burn missing from defence.
Tonali and Barnes, Anderson from Midfield
Isak and Murphy missing from attack with Wilson carrying an injury.

Squad depth is still too shallow to compete across 3 or 4 fronts. CL football arrived at least a season too soon.

No arguments though that Dortmund outplayed us comprehensively in the first half and it was inevitable in the 2nd what would happen, the way we were pushing for an equaliser. Milan beating PSG was a bit of a blow as it makes it all a bit tight for third place in the group and the possible fall back of Europa League football.