The Footie Thread

[Swango1980]

Newcastle are currently restricted on their spending by ffp, massive Club who will not be able to compete for the title for quite a few years, a lot longer than may of been possible if there was no spending restriction.

They may be a massive club to most other clubs, but we are comparing them to clubs that many would consider to be more "massive". They will probably not win the title, because of clubs like Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal and dare I say it, Man Utd, Chelsea and Spurs if they manage to get things right. They are all "massive" clubs, so why should Newcastle have a guaranteed right to compete for the title. Even if you list Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd, Spurs (as the so called top 6), they are not all going to compete for the title each year. 3-4 of them may be nowhere near in contention. Man Utd haven't really competed for the title in over a decade.

I've just Googled net spend over the last 5 years, so I'm not sure this info is accurate. But, Newcastle's net spend was 5th on the list. Man City were 6th (dodgy accounting?), Liverpool 9th. Chelsea were No.1 by quite some distance, Man Utd 2nd.

If you were to lift all spending restrictions, Man Utd and Chelsea have shown that money does not guarantee you will compete for the title. But, if there were no restrictions, I'm sure there would be other clubs that could just go even more crazy in buying in players of their own. It isn't like suddenly Newcastle will be able to hoover up all the top players, while everyone else will stand still. That might potentially make it even less likely Newcastle will ever compete, because the best players would be attracted by the huge sums of money to go to other well known clubs anyway. Besides, it seems Newcastle have spent a decent amount of money as it stands over the last 5 years

 

[PaulMdj]

I’m sort of in agreement with this.
Back when the missus did director disqualification she chased down a few football club owners. It infuriated her that football clubs are allowed to operate outside of the normal business regulations such as running at a loss, getting preferential treatment from HMRC etc etc.
Obviously in a utopian society all clubs chug along nicely with a tidy profit and I accept it’s never going to happen, but it still bugs me how they get away with stuff.

Can you ask your missus:

Was this/is this because it’s a sport that’s become a business and if the problems come from how they began and were funded?

 

[4LEX]

I’m sort of in agreement with this.
Back when the missus did director disqualification she chased down a few football club owners. It infuriated her that football clubs are allowed to operate outside of the normal business regulations such as running at a loss, getting preferential treatment from HMRC etc etc.
Obviously in a utopian society all clubs chug along nicely with a tidy profit and I accept it’s never going to happen, but it still bugs me how they get away with stuff.

Football clubs aren't just a business though, often they're the heartbeat of a community, do lots of charity work etc. It's a grey area.

Ideal model would be something like the 51% fan ownership system they have in Germany and the ability to source outside investment but that would be down to the fans. If it goes wrong, it's on the fans and they can't blame rogue owners. It would also leave the option open for a sugar daddy type investor who might want to invest in a smaller club through love, like Jack Walker did at Blackburn and Dave Whelen did at Wigan. The sad thing about FFP is it stops situations like that happening again, however with entire nations getting involved there does need to be controls.

 

[Beezerk]

Can you ask your missus:

Was this/is this because it’s a sport that’s become a business and if the problems come from how they began and were funded?

It’s nothing to do with sport really, she disqualified many directors over the years, lots of them so dodgy you wouldn’t believe the stories For her it was purely from a business point of view. One director runs business x and gets disqualified for 5 years, director y runs a football club and is just as dodgy as director x but gets a slap in the wrist.

 

[PaulMdj]

They may be a massive club to most other clubs, but we are comparing them to clubs that many would consider to be more "massive". They will probably not win the title, because of clubs like Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal and dare I say it, Man Utd, Chelsea and Spurs if they manage to get things right. They are all "massive" clubs, so why should Newcastle have a guaranteed right to compete for the title. Even if you list Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd, Spurs (as the so called top 6), they are not all going to compete for the title each year. 3-4 of them may be nowhere near in contention. Man Utd haven't really competed for the title in over a decade.

I've just Googled net spend over the last 5 years, so I'm not sure this info is accurate. But, Newcastle's net spend was 5th on the list. Man City were 6th (dodgy accounting?), Liverpool 9th. Chelsea were No.1 by quite some distance, Man Utd 2nd.

If you were to lift all spending restrictions, Man Utd and Chelsea have shown that money does not guarantee you will compete for the title. But, if there were no restrictions, I'm sure there would be other clubs that could just go even more crazy in buying in players of their own. It isn't like suddenly Newcastle will be able to hoover up all the top players, while everyone else will stand still. That might potentially make it even less likely Newcastle will ever compete, because the best players would be attracted by the huge sums of money to go to other well known clubs anyway. Besides, it seems Newcastle have spent a decent amount of money as it stands over the last 5 years

Have you heard of Abramovich?

The Saudi’s have owned Newcastle for 2 seasons! Never said they have a guaranteed right, but money talks!

Why if money is no object would the richest Club in the World not be able to hoover up players?

Utd have finished top 4, 5 or 6 times since Fergie left, twice runners-up.

 

[PaulMdj]

It’s nothing to do with sport really, she disqualified many directors over the years, lots of them so dodgy you wouldn’t believe the stories For her it was purely from a business point of view. One director runs business x and gets disqualified for 5 years, director y runs a football club and is just as dodgy as director x but gets a slap in the wrist.

But that’s not the Clubs fault, surely that’s down to legislation/rules etc

 

[Swango1980]

Have you heard of Abramovich?

The Saudi’s have owned Newcastle for 2 seasons! Never said they have a guaranteed right, but money talks!

Why if money is no object would the richest Club in the World not be able to hoover up players?

Utd have finished top 4, 5 or 6 times since Fergie left, twice runners-up.

Yes, I've heard of Abramovich. Who was able to come in at a time, awith almost had an infinite amount of money to spend money that basically no club could compete with, not even the likes of Man Utd really.

We live in a different time. Newcastle's owners are not one of a kind anymore. There are multiple clubs that could potentially offer the best players crazy crazy amounts of money. If Man City or Man Utd were prepared to offer a player £800,000 per week, it will often not make much difference if Newcastle offer £900,000 a week. At those amounts of money, I think many players would still decide not to go the Newcastle.

But, as I said, it is not like Newcastle haven't spent money lately. Is that money talking as loudly as people think it should? I think Newcastle have done well enough since Ashley left. Unlucky this year with injuries. But, regardless of how much they spend, it is a tough ask to expect them to compete for a title when teams like City and Liverpool have built up a great foundation over many years, and even clubs like Arsenal, Spurs, etc have been a long way ahead of Newcastle. But, fast forward 5-10 years. Perhaps City no longer have Pep, maybe Liverpool and City have hit a bad patch and fallen down the table. Maybe other clubs have improved. Maybe big clubs like Man Utd or Chelsea. But even clubs like Villa or Newcastle may continue to grow, and put themselves in with a chance to win titles. Newcastle have literally just got a rich owner about 5 seconds ago, so maybe there needs to be a bit more patience given some of the clubs in the PL are already amongst the best clubs in the world, and miles ahead of Newcastle in their development.

 

[Bdill93]

Yes, I've heard of Abramovich. Who was able to come in at a time, awith almost had an infinite amount of money to spend money that basically no club could compete with, not even the likes of Man Utd really.

We live in a different time. Newcastle's owners are not one of a kind anymore. There are multiple clubs that could potentially offer the best players crazy crazy amounts of money. If Man City or Man Utd were prepared to offer a player £800,000 per week, it will often not make much difference if Newcastle offer £900,000 a week. At those amounts of money, I think many players would still decide not to go the Newcastle.

But, as I said, it is not like Newcastle haven't spent money lately. Is that money talking as loudly as people think it should? I think Newcastle have done well enough since Ashley left. Unlucky this year with injuries. But, regardless of how much they spend, it is a tough ask to expect them to compete for a title when teams like City and Liverpool have built up a great foundation over many years, and even clubs like Arsenal, Spurs, etc have been a long way ahead of Newcastle. But, fast forward 5-10 years. Perhaps City no longer have Pep, maybe Liverpool and City have hit a bad patch and fallen down the table. Maybe other clubs have improved. Maybe big clubs like Man Utd or Chelsea. But even clubs like Villa or Newcastle may continue to grow, and put themselves in with a chance to win titles. Newcastle have literally just got a rich owner about 5 seconds ago, so maybe there needs to be a bit more patience given some of the clubs in the PL are already amongst the best clubs in the world, and miles ahead of Newcastle in their development.

Just gonna throw it out there that its definitely possible to organically grow still - it just takes longer than it did for Man City or Chelsea.

Villa are getting there, each deal the club makes with new sponsors or shirt makes etc has been improved/ bettered since we came back up. If we continued European football you'd expect this to keep rising.

Stadiums are a biggie though, every "big 6" side has a massive one bar Chelsea, its certainly an area that could generate more for Villa. I know old trafford is a mess but its still full every week and fans pay premium ticket prices!

 

[PaulMdj]

Just gonna throw it out there that its definitely possible to organically grow still - it just takes longer than it did for Man City or Chelsea.

Villa are getting there, each deal the club makes with new sponsors or shirt makes etc has been improved/ bettered since we came back up. If we continued European football you'd expect this to keep rising.

Stadiums are a biggie though, every "big 6" side has a massive one bar Chelsea, its certainly an area that could generate more for Villa. I know old trafford is a mess but its still full every week and fans pay premium ticket prices!

You’re correct for big, well established teams.

Genuine question, what chance does the likes of B’Mouth, Luton etc have to get to the top 6-8, never mind challenge for a title. How many years would it take, or should they just accept being an also ran?

 

[Bdill93]

You’re correct for big, well established teams.

Genuine question, what chance does the likes of B’Mouth, Luton etc have to get to the top 6-8, never mind challenge for a title. How many years would it take, or should they just accept being an also ran?

Longer for sure but still possible - look at Brighton as an example of pathway for that..

1) Their local community is smaller so the demand locally isnt as high (Bournemouth especially)
2) They'd need to be great at one of 2 things - academy that generates first teamers or profit/ a brilliant transfer policy that rarely misses.
3) Transformative ownership - be the first to do something new, I wonder how much Wrexham generates commercially in comparison to Bournemouth?
4) Sign big players from smaller footballing nations. Son himself probably generates enough money for Spurs to pay his wages, his following is massive and those fans will stick around when he leaves, very clever way of building foreign support.
5) Time...

 

[Swango1980]

You’re correct for big, well established teams.

Genuine question, what chance does the likes of B’Mouth, Luton etc have to get to the top 6-8, never mind challenge for a title. How many years would it take, or should they just accept being an also ran?

What chance do you think they should have? How many years do you think it should take before they should be able to compete for a title?

At one point, Villa were not in the PL. They are currently sitting in 4th, and could progress. Brighton are 8th, potentially they could progress. Wolves 9th, Fulham 12th, Bournemouth 13th etc. It is all well and good thinking that they should be able to compete for the title at some point. Then again, why should they? Leeds fans, Leicester fans, Southampton fans, Norwich fans, Middlesbrough fans, Sunderland fans, Sheffield Wednesday fans, etc may all think that they should be able to grow their sides, and have a chance at winning the PL. I'm sure a lot of them would believe they have more of a "right" to be competing for a PL title than Luton, Bournemouth, etc.

The simple fact is, Man City are the best team in Europe right now, and have been at a high level for years. There are a lot of teams that have been at a much much higher level than Bournemouth or Luton. So, clearly it will be difficult for them. And, fans of the current top 6 clubs are hardly going to say "we've had our time, we deserve to drop down a bit now so that a club who have done nothing for 100 years can compete for titles". So, for any clubs to break into the top 6, it will take blood sweat and tears, and probably a heavy dose of luck.

 

[Bdill93]

What chance do you think they should have? How many years do you think it should take before they should be able to compete for a title?

At one point, Villa were not in the PL. They are currently sitting in 4th, and could progress. Brighton are 8th, potentially they could progress. Wolves 9th, Fulham 12th, Bournemouth 13th etc. It is all well and good thinking that they should be able to compete for the title at some point. Then again, why should they? Leeds fans, Leicester fans, Southampton fans, Norwich fans, Middlesbrough fans, Sunderland fans, Sheffield Wednesday fans, etc may all think that they should be able to grow their sides, and have a chance at winning the PL. I'm sure a lot of them would believe they have more of a "right" to be competing for a PL title than Luton, Bournemouth, etc.

The simple fact is, Man City are the best team in Europe right now, and have been at a high level for years. There are a lot of teams that have been at a much much higher level than Bournemouth or Luton. So, clearly it will be difficult for them. And, fans of the current top 6 clubs are hardly going to say "we've had our time, we deserve to drop down a bit now so that a club who have done nothing for 100 years can compete for titles". So, for any clubs to break into the top 6, it will take blood sweat and tears, and probably a heavy dose of luck.

This is one of the biggest factors...

Villa have signed a lot of players since we came back up, some have been real bargains and some have been busts with some in between.

Sign the right manager though and all of a sudden we're competitive.

Same with Newcastle... Same with Leicester when they won it! The right people in the right places at the right time can catapult a club.

Staying up there and maintaining - seriously hard!

 

[GB72]

What chance do you think they should have? How many years do you think it should take before they should be able to compete for a title?

At one point, Villa were not in the PL. They are currently sitting in 4th, and could progress. Brighton are 8th, potentially they could progress. Wolves 9th, Fulham 12th, Bournemouth 13th etc. It is all well and good thinking that they should be able to compete for the title at some point. Then again, why should they? Leeds fans, Leicester fans, Southampton fans, Norwich fans, Middlesbrough fans, Sunderland fans, Sheffield Wednesday fans, etc may all think that they should be able to grow their sides, and have a chance at winning the PL. I'm sure a lot of them would believe they have more of a "right" to be competing for a PL title than Luton, Bournemouth, etc.

The simple fact is, Man City are the best team in Europe right now, and have been at a high level for years. There are a lot of teams that have been at a much much higher level than Bournemouth or Luton. So, clearly it will be difficult for them. And, fans of the current top 6 clubs are hardly going to say "we've had our time, we deserve to drop down a bit now so that a club who have done nothing for 100 years can compete for titles". So, for any clubs to break into the top 6, it will take blood sweat and tears, and probably a heavy dose of luck.

But how did Man City get to where they are, they had wealthy owners who, allegedly, disregarded FFP to get in the big name players, win things and so raise their global support and become self sufficient and spend within FFP.

 

[PaulMdj]

What chance do you think they should have? How many years do you think it should take before they should be able to compete for a title?

At one point, Villa were not in the PL. They are currently sitting in 4th, and could progress. Brighton are 8th, potentially they could progress. Wolves 9th, Fulham 12th, Bournemouth 13th etc. It is all well and good thinking that they should be able to compete for the title at some point. Then again, why should they? Leeds fans, Leicester fans, Southampton fans, Norwich fans, Middlesbrough fans, Sunderland fans, Sheffield Wednesday fans, etc may all think that they should be able to grow their sides, and have a chance at winning the PL. I'm sure a lot of them would believe they have more of a "right" to be competing for a PL title than Luton, Bournemouth, etc.

The simple fact is, Man City are the best team in Europe right now, and have been at a high level for years. There are a lot of teams that have been at a much much higher level than Bournemouth or Luton. So, clearly it will be difficult for them. And, fans of the current top 6 clubs are hardly going to say "we've had our time, we deserve to drop down a bit now so that a club who have done nothing for 100 years can compete for titles". So, for any clubs to break into the top 6, it will take blood sweat and tears, and probably a heavy dose of luck.

You’re missing the point, nobody has a right to win or challenge for the PL, but getting back to the original point, it is FFP that is stopping some teams from getting anywhere near it.

Why should Forest or anyone else be told what they can or cannot spend to establish themselves in the PL.

City are only were they are because of money! It didn’t take them blood, sweat or tears! Likewise Chelsea when Abramovich came in.

The game is now ruined by people trying to control spending by creating a bigger gap between those at the top and the rest.

Sadly we’ll never get back to a League were 6-8 Clubs could be there or about trying to win the title, now it’s 2, maybe 3 with another 3 chasing top 4.

 

[GB72]

This is one of the biggest factors...

Villa have signed a lot of players since we came back up, some have been real bargains and some have been busts with some in between.

Sign the right manager though and all of a sudden we're competitive.

Same with Newcastle... Same with Leicester when they won it! The right people in the right places at the right time can catapult a club.

Staying up there and maintaining - seriously hard!

Look at Leicester, aside from an almost injury free season, what were the chances of finding both Mahrez and Kante at give away prices.

 

[Bdill93]

But how did Man City get to where they are, they had wealthy owners who, allegedly, disregarded FFP to get in the big name players, win things and so raise their global support and become self sufficient and spend within FFP.

Nothing stopping a team trying the same thing! If City are relegated then that may stop some, if they aren't and the punishment isn't mega strong - watch the floodgates open

 

[PaulMdj]

Look at Leicester, aside from an almost injury free season, what were the chances of finding both Mahrez and Kante at give away prices.

Leicester only got out of the Championship by breaking the rules on spending! Who knows what they’d of become without that.

 

[Bdill93]

Look at Leicester, aside from an almost injury free season, what were the chances of finding both Mahrez and Kante at give away prices.

Slim... right place and right time for sure. The whole thing was.

 

[Swango1980]

But how did Man City get to where they are, they had wealthy owners who, allegedly, disregarded FFP to get in the big name players, win things and so raise their global support and become self sufficient and spend within FFP.

City have allegedly breached many FFP restrictions. That is a different debate. That is more down to how it is policed, rather than just letting clubs spend as they wish. If clubs could just spend what they wish without question, then by some people's arguments, Man City would be absolutely untouchable by now?

 

[GB72]

City have allegedly breached many FFP restrictions. That is a different debate. That is more down to how it is policed, rather than just letting clubs spend as they wish. If clubs could just spend what they wish without question, then by some people's arguments, Man City would be absolutely untouchable by now?

The policing is not the point, the point is that City probably only got to the top table by breaching FFP to allow them to spend and get where they are. They and Chelsea are pretty much case in point (certainly in the early days of Chelsea having money) that being able to spend what you want allows lowlier teams to reach the top and breach the traditional closed shop of top teams.