The Footie Thread

[Norrin Radd]

I get Maguire is lucky to be playing, given he isn't playing for his club. But the focus on him has become absurd.

He may not be a Rio Ferdinand, blessed with a bit of pace. But he has generally been solid at England. Utd have been farcical at the back without Maguire, indicating their issues are much more widespread that having Maguire at the back. He has simply become the pantomime villain. If England start slowing the tempo, apparently it is Maguire's fault!!!!! Clearly no team is going to have the energy to gungho attack for 90 minutes, and when they slowed tempo the midfielders were not making the runs to receive that ball of Maguire. I thought Maguire was generally good on the ball, and made some good passes, which was surprising as he must be rusty. But all that is ignored, and and hesitation is pounced on by fans and media.

Re your ,a team can't go as you put it gung go for 90 mins .
I give you most premier League teams ,week in and out they are going for it for 90 mins of every match as not one team can relax for a second as the opposition will be looking to capitalise on any slow down. Unless a side is four up with ten to go teams can't slow everything down. , McGuire came on and the whole tempo of England's game was half of the first half.the midfield knew they were not going to be getting a pass from McGuire when they made a run into space ,they just knew the ball was going sideways.
McGuire can't play out from the back ,he is an old fashioned defender who is now a dinosaur in today's version of football.
Southgate for some unknown reason is totally blinkered when it comes to picking him.

 

[Billysboots]

Wasn't that ultimately down to him? He wanted more of a payoff from Utd and when he didn't get it he dug his heels in. That was the report. He could be playing regularly if he wanted it.

That’s exactly my understanding too. He wanted a hefty bonus from United in lieu of the potential loss in wages incurred by moving to West Ham, and when United refused he dug his heels in. A deal between the clubs had been agreed.

Personally, I don’t buy all this “nobody can afford to lose that sort of money” excuse. Being realistic, any player playing top flight and international football for as long as Maguire has done will already have more money than they can spend in several lifetimes. Consequently I don’t understand the stance allegedly adopted by him, Henderson and any other player who chases the money.

There has to come a point in every players life where they make the choice to either top up their already massively overflowing bank accounts, or show some professional pride and ambition and say, you know what, I’ll take the cut and play elsewhere.

I have always had the greatest respect for Harry Maguire and the way he has remained so dignified and professional in the face of everything he has endured during the last two years. But that respect has been severely dented if the reports regarding the transfer failure are true.

 

[Billysboots]

Forget for one minute GS and Maguire and think about players and managers in General.
If a manager comes out with statements, but then does the polar opposite.
eg, “ If he is not playing for his club, then he don’t play for England”.
” he don’t play in the middle of the park for his club ( when he did the week before against Newcastle) so he could struggle for England”. Yet the same manager then plays other players out of position on a regular basis.
” I don’t get the unwarranted criticism of said player”. When it is generally accepted said player/s are not the best”.
I could continue. When you come out as a manager, whoever you are with comments like that. You are setting yourself up for criticism .
On top of that. To play a friendly and not look at other players is a cardinal sin.

Then look at a player. Any player.
If he is not playing football, any football, not just regular football. How can we gauge how good he is. What would be the outcry if say Pickford was the goalkeeper for England but had never put on a shirt at Everton for 12 months. We compare Pickford with Pope and others because we see them play, every week.
A player/ s get in the England squad because they have never let us down and is good in the squad as a senior player. I suppose Bobby Charlton is now putting some dubbin on his boots as we talk. Where do you draw the line. OK keep said senior player on the bench, but if I was an England centre half that had spent the last week travelling around Europe and never got a sniff irrespective of a senior player/s being good for morale. I would now be seriously bogged off.

I only know of one manager at the very top level who continues to pick out of form players. He has made life very difficult for himself and some of his out of form players.

Totally agree. Southgate does himself no favours whatsoever at times.

Maybe he has trotted out so many different mantras that he has confused himself. Certainly his use of his squad last night was odd, to put it mildly.

 

[GB72]

That’s exactly my understanding too. He wanted a hefty bonus from United in lieu of the potential loss in wages incurred by moving to West Ham, and when United refused he dug his heels in. A deal between the clubs had been agreed.

Personally, I don’t buy all this “nobody can afford to lose that sort of money” excuse. Being realistic, any player playing top flight and international football for as long as Maguire has done will already have more money than they can spend in several lifetimes. Consequently I don’t understand the stance allegedly adopted by him, Henderson and any other player who chases the money.

There has to come a point in every players life where they make the choice to either top up their already massively overflowing bank accounts, or show some professional pride and ambition and say, you know what, I’ll take the cut and play elsewhere.

I have always had the greatest respect for Harry Maguire and the way he has remained so dignified and professional in the face of everything he has endured during the last two years. But that respect has been severely dented if the reports regarding the transfer failure are true.

I get both sides of the argument on this. Yes, players have loads of money but it takes something to just abandon £5 million. It is simply the nature of the beast and is a business negotiation. United want out of the contract as cheaply as possible, the player wants to get what he is contractually owed. I suspect there will be a similar effort to move on Sancho soon with plenty in the press about how he has to do it to resurrect his career. Now is that just the press or is that PR departments influencing public opinion. Who knows.

This is not one with a moral element to it, simply business. Am i right in thinking that he walks on a free at the end of next year, think the original deal was 6 years in 2018. If so, he gets an extra £5 million for one year in the reserves and the chance of a better deal somewhere else next season

Please remember I lack the encyclopedic football knowledge of some and so this could be wrong.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

I get both sides of the argument on this. Yes, players have loads of money but it takes something to just abandon £5 million. It is simply the nature of the beast and is a business negotiation. United want out of the contract as cheaply as possible, the player wants to get what he is contractually owed. I suspect there will be a similar effort to move on Sancho soon with plenty in the press about how he has to do it to resurrect his career. Now is that just the press or is that PR departments influencing public opinion. Who knows.

This is not one with a moral element to it, simply business. Am i right in thinking that he walks on a free at the end of next year, think the original deal was 6 years in 2018. If so, he gets an extra £5 million for one year in the reserves and the chance of a better deal somewhere else next season

Please remember I lack the encyclopedic football knowledge of some and so this could be wrong.

If man united want him gone should have paid up the full whack

They agreed to the contract

 

[GB72]

If man united want him gone should have paid up the full whack

They agreed to the contract

Not aiming this specifically at United but in general, it does seem that clubs want a player out and so the press is suddenly full of stories about how this is hurting the player's career and damaging the club because they cannot bring in new players and suddenly fans are baying for the player to sign for whoever and they are greedy and selfish if they don't. You want a player out, you negotiate a settlement and if you cannot pay what the player wants then expect to pay wages and bonuses until the end of the contract and watch him leave on a free.

 

[Reemul]

That’s exactly my understanding too. He wanted a hefty bonus from United in lieu of the potential loss in wages incurred by moving to West Ham, and when United refused he dug his heels in. A deal between the clubs had been agreed.

Personally, I don’t buy all this “nobody can afford to lose that sort of money” excuse. Being realistic, any player playing top flight and international football for as long as Maguire has done will already have more money than they can spend in several lifetimes. Consequently I don’t understand the stance allegedly adopted by him, Henderson and any other player who chases the money.

There has to come a point in every players life where they make the choice to either top up their already massively overflowing bank accounts, or show some professional pride and ambition and say, you know what, I’ll take the cut and play elsewhere.

I have always had the greatest respect for Harry Maguire and the way he has remained so dignified and professional in the face of everything he has endured during the last two years. But that respect has been severely dented if the reports regarding the transfer failure are true.

Yeah I don't buy all this rubbish at all, it's Rubbish. Rich people spend their money like anyone else. Why the hell would anyone at his stage of his career throw away £5mill+. Really. I know we have people that think footballers all play for love and the badge etc but really they are just employees earning a big wage.

He has a valid contract, you want him gone you pay it up, you don't you live with it. I love how people talk for other people as if they know anything.

I see all the stick you come in from here without people knowing what they are talking about regarding policing yet here you are talking about someone you have no idea about him, his circumstances or anything. We have no idea what he was offered from either Man Utd or West Ham, it's all just gossip. What we can know is if Man Utd wanted him gone they can pay his contract up and they did not want to do this.

 

[Billysboots]

Yeah I don't buy all this rubbish at all, it's Rubbish. Rich people spend their money like anyone else. Why the hell would anyone at his stage of his career throw away £5mill+. Really. I know we have people that think footballers all play for love and the badge etc but really they are just employees earning a big wage.

He has a valid contract, you want him gone you pay it up, you don't you live with it. I love how people talk for other people as if they know anything.

I see all the stick you come in from here without people knowing what they are talking about regarding policing yet here you are talking about someone you have no idea about him, his circumstances or anything. We have no idea what he was offered from either Man Utd or West Ham, it's all just gossip. What we can know is if Man Utd wanted him gone they can pay his contract up and they did not want to do this.

Hang on. The stick I get regarding my previous career isn’t really relevant, is it?

All the conservative estimates put Maguire on very nearly £200k a week. So give or take £10m a year. That’s not including bonus payments, endorsements and so on. Or any slice of the £80m fee paid out when he joined United.

I get the fact that he is allegedly being asked to give up £5m, but he would still have gone on to earn an absolute fortune at West Ham. So, despite the fact he clearly spends money the same as anyone else, I think I’m probably well within my rights to say he’s not exactly dining in the local soup kitchen, despite me not having had a peek at his latest tax return!

Harry Maguire is not the first footballer a club has tried to offload before the end of his contract is reached. It happens all the time. And yet this is the first time I have seen people feel sorry for a player who is stinking filthy rich because the selling club doesn’t want to pay him a nice juicy severance bonus. Maybe all players sold before their contract expires are paid such a bonus, but I very much doubt it or United would not have been so reticent in stumping up the cash. Because, if we return to the small matter of wages, the alleged bonus requested is only half his annual salary.

Whilst I obviously don’t know Harry Maguire I think in all the circumstances I am entitled to assume he is exceptionally wealthy. And I am perhaps equally as entitled to assume that he would continue to be exceptionally wealthy regardless of whether he went on to earn £200k a week at United or half that at West Ham. I don’t need to have first hand knowledge of all of his personal affairs in order to join the dots.

With respect, it’s not quite the same as someone who has never set foot in a police station telling me how to do my old job, is it?

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Hang on. The stick I get regarding my previous career isn’t really relevant, is it?

All the conservative estimates put Maguire on very nearly £200k a week. So give or take £10m a year. That’s not including bonus payments, endorsements and so on. Or any slice of the £80m fee paid out when he joined United.

I get the fact that he is allegedly being asked to give up £5m, but he would still have gone on to earn an absolute fortune at West Ham. So, despite the fact he clearly spends money the same as anyone else, I think I’m probably well within my rights to say he’s not exactly dining in the local soup kitchen, despite me not having had a peek at his latest tax return!

Harry Maguire is not the first footballer a club has tried to offload before the end of his contract is reached. It happens all the time. And yet this is the first time I have seen people feel sorry for a player who is stinking filthy rich because the selling club doesn’t want to pay him a nice juicy severance bonus. Maybe all players sold before their contract expires are paid such a bonus, but I very much doubt it or United would not have been so reticent in stumping up the cash. Because, if we return to the small matter of wages, the alleged bonus requested is only half his annual salary.

Whilst I obviously don’t know Harry Maguire I think in all the circumstances I am entitled to assume he is exceptionally wealthy. And I am perhaps equally as entitled to assume that he would continue to be exceptionally wealthy regardless of whether he went on to earn £200k a week at United or half that at West Ham. I don’t need to have first hand knowledge of all of his personal affairs in order to join the dots.

With respect, it’s not quite the same as someone who has never set foot in a police station telling me how to do my old job, is it?

It's more the fact that united were stupid enough to offer him a contract that gave him a wage rise if he met a target . Which was met

So he is entitled to that contract

They should pay up

They could easily have lowered the price on his head by 5 mil so that we could pay him a sign on bonus of 5 million more to cover the costs

 

[Billysboots]

It's more the fact that united were stupid enough to offer him a contract that gave him a wage rise if he met a target . Which was met

So he is entitled to that contract

They should pay up

They could easily have lowered the price on his head by 5 mil so that we could pay him a sign on bonus of 5 million more to cover the costs

So are we now advocating that all contracts are paid up when a player is sold before he can leave on a free?

Or is this argument being trotted out because of the identity of the player and, more specifically, the selling club involved?

 

[GB72]

Hang on. The stick I get regarding my previous career isn’t really relevant, is it?

All the conservative estimates put Maguire on very nearly £200k a week. So give or take £10m a year. That’s not including bonus payments, endorsements and so on. Or any slice of the £80m fee paid out when he joined United.

I get the fact that he is allegedly being asked to give up £5m, but he would still have gone on to earn an absolute fortune at West Ham. So, despite the fact he clearly spends money the same as anyone else, I think I’m probably well within my rights to say he’s not exactly dining in the local soup kitchen, despite me not having had a peek at his latest tax return!

Harry Maguire is not the first footballer a club has tried to offload before the end of his contract is reached. It happens all the time. And yet this is the first time I have seen people feel sorry for a player who is stinking filthy rich because the selling club doesn’t want to pay him a nice juicy severance bonus. Maybe all players sold before their contract expires are paid such a bonus, but I very much doubt it or United would not have been so reticent in stumping up the cash. Because, if we return to the small matter of wages, the alleged bonus requested is only half his annual salary.

Whilst I obviously don’t know Harry Maguire I think in all the circumstances I am entitled to assume he is exceptionally wealthy. And I am perhaps equally as entitled to assume that he would continue to be exceptionally wealthy regardless of whether he went on to earn £200k a week at United or half that at West Ham. I don’t need to have first hand knowledge of all of his personal affairs in order to join the dots.

With respect, it’s not quite the same as someone who has never set foot in a police station telling me how to do my old job, is it?

I am not disagreeing with what you say as I can see both sides. That said, I do not equate the existing level of wealth with giving up a not insignificant payment. Just because that suits the club, it does not mean it suits the player. I assume that most deals are done based on the player being happy with the package and final destination and maybe that is not the case here. I guess, and we are all just guessing, that we look at what may be a 50% cut in salary to move to West Ham who, based on the previous season, may have been bouncing about near the bottom of the table (clearly that is not what is happening). Playing in a team that is not winning is not a great look for a defender trying to rebuild their career and who is taking a pay cut to do it.

Maybe the player does agree a move if the end destination is right but in this case what was on offer does not appear to match what the player would lose out on.

Maybe at 30 he has looked at this as the time to rake in some funds to the end of this contract and then leave on a free. Who knows. I am not sure on his contract length but if it still the original 6 year deal then he can look at moves in January on a free or, more likely, the pressure will be on United to recoup some of the cost and they may look at a transfer fee and pay out what it costs to do the deal. After that, you then potentially have the moral argument as Maguire will not player at a higher level than United, his England career may be ending and then Saudi seems like an attractive option.

This may be me just talking rubbish

 

[Deleted member 21784]

So are we now advocating that all contracts are paid up when a player is sold before he can leave on a free?

Or is this argument being trotted out because of the identity of the player and, more specifically, the selling club involved?

Man united want him off the books, that's a fact

We had offered him less money because we couldn't (or wouldn't) pay 200k a week or whatever the figure was

So he asked for those wages to be paid off to leave to be able to accept a lower wage

It is pretty fair enough to ask for that when the contract was made

After all he doesn't have to leave, he can sit on the reserves picking up a wage then sign for someone next year for nothing (getting a good sign on bonus)

So considering the club want him gone rather than the player wanting out why shouldn't he be paid? Just because he is rich?

No matter how rich you are money is money. How many people would leave a job and go you know what keep that £1000 you owe me , I don't need it .

 

[Deleted member 15344]

If a club wants to sell a player then they will need to after the fee but then the player will also have to be happy with the deal

if Maguires feels like he is dropping down a level both terms of club and also wages then he will look to address that imbalance that he believes is there

A number of players have it in their contract to receive compensation when the club sells them - it’s why a number of them don’t put in transfer requests , because they lose that entitlement.

Now Man Utd have made it clear to Maguire that they don’t want him , but he signed a contract with them so if they want him to leave then they honour the contract or pay him some compensation to address his loss of earnings he will get signing a new contract with a different team

If the club say no then the player has a choice , turn down the move and pick up the wages and maybe don’t play or take the loss and prob play more

He took the first option. He may regret it or he may force his way back into the Utd team. It’s clearly not going to affect his England career

 

[Orikoru]

Man united want him off the books, that's a fact

We had offered him less money because we couldn't (or wouldn't) pay 200k a week or whatever the figure was

So he asked for those wages to be paid off to leave to be able to accept a lower wage

It is pretty fair enough to ask for that when the contract was made

After all he doesn't have to leave, he can sit on the reserves picking up a wage then sign for someone next year for nothing (getting a good sign on bonus)

So considering the club want him gone rather than the player wanting out why shouldn't he be paid? Just because he is rich?

No matter how rich you are money is money. How many people would leave a job and go you know what keep that £1000 you owe me , I don't need it .

Players frequently move for lower wages and more playing time though. They don't all demand that the difference is paid up by the selling club - in fact I think that's fairly rare. I seem to remember Adebayor was paid off a certain amount by City when he joined us, and he was well known as someone who only played for money so a big deal was made of this in the press at the time. "He's so bad City are paying him to play against them." etc.

Just think Maguire should have looked at the bigger picture. Gets a signing bonus from West Ham to soften the blow - plays regularly in a lower profile club where he can perform better and stop being a laughing stock. Or at least reach a compromise - unless both Maguire and United were unwilling to budge. I don't know the ins and outs but I was surprised a deal wasn't done, put it that way. More than one person being very stubborn I think. The upshot is nobody ends up happy.

 

[Billysboots]

Man united want him off the books, that's a fact

We had offered him less money because we couldn't (or wouldn't) pay 200k a week or whatever the figure was

So he asked for those wages to be paid off to leave to be able to accept a lower wage

It is pretty fair enough to ask for that when the contract was made

After all he doesn't have to leave, he can sit on the reserves picking up a wage then sign for someone next year for nothing (getting a good sign on bonus)

So considering the club want him gone rather than the player wanting out why shouldn't he be paid? Just because he is rich?

No matter how rich you are money is money. How many people would leave a job and go you know what keep that £1000 you owe me , I don't need it .

People leave jobs for other jobs on less pay every day. And don’t forget Maguire would still have been earning an obscene amount at West Ham.

Why, all of a sudden, are we pitying a player who, because of his poor performances at the top level, is going to have to take a step to an acknowledged lesser club?

It happens all the time, yet now the knives are out. Why?

 

[GB72]

People leave jobs for other jobs on less pay every day. And don’t forget Maguire would still have been earning an obscene amount at West Ham.

Why, all of a sudden, are we pitying a player who, because of his poor performances at the top level, is going to have to take a step to an acknowledged lesser club?

It happens all the time, yet now the knives are out. Why?

I have been trying to look at it in more general terms and as objectively as I can. Certainly got no axe to grind (but thank you for the £80million you paid us, lot of good that did).

I look at it more that Maguire is 30, so maybe as little as one more decent contract in him, an England career reaching an end perhaps and not long left on the contract. If he had had 2-3 years left on his contract, if he was a bit younger, if he was getting an offer from a top 6-8 club then you can see things may be a bit different. Training with United may be enough to get him to the Euros and may actually put him in a position than if he was playing badly for another club.

Then you have the Saudi money (not saying that has any involvement but guessing). Stay at United until the end of the season, pocket the cash, scrape into the team for the Euros then sign a nice big deal in the Middle East.

 

[DPapas1982]

Man united want him off the books, that's a fact

We had offered him less money because we couldn't (or wouldn't) pay 200k a week or whatever the figure was

So he asked for those wages to be paid off to leave to be able to accept a lower wage

It is pretty fair enough to ask for that when the contract was made

After all he doesn't have to leave, he can sit on the reserves picking up a wage then sign for someone next year for nothing (getting a good sign on bonus)

So considering the club want him gone rather than the player wanting out why shouldn't he be paid? Just because he is rich?

No matter how rich you are money is money. How many people would leave a job and go you know what keep that £1000 you owe me , I don't need it .

Re the last point. Can we all move on from trying to compare the wages situations To normal people. It doesn’t help prove any point.
most people aren’t guaranteed a new job at the end of a set contract on the real world.
if I was on let’s say 70k a year for 5 years and it was due to expire in w months and a new company offered me a 5 year deal on 365k but I had to start straight away (and my current employer agreed), then I’d clearly take it as I’d need the security. Footballers aren’t in this position.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Players frequently move for lower wages and more playing time though. They don't all demand that the difference is paid up by the selling club - in fact I think that's fairly rare. I seem to remember Adebayor was paid off a certain amount by City when he joined us, and he was well known as someone who only played for money so a big deal was made of this in the press at the time. "He's so bad City are paying him to play against them." etc.

Just think Maguire should have looked at the bigger picture. Gets a signing bonus from West Ham to soften the blow - plays regularly in a lower profile club where he can perform better and stop being a laughing stock. Or at least reach a compromise - unless both Maguire and United were unwilling to budge. I don't know the ins and outs but I was surprised a deal wasn't done, put it that way. More than one person being very stubborn I think. The upshot is nobody ends up happy.

It happens very often that the selling club helps cover some of the wages of the player they want off the books

@Billysboots if united hadn't got champs league this would be a moot point because they clause wouldn't have kicked in , he clearly doesn't want to forfeit the money which he is entitled to do

Imagine what will happen with Chelsea and these 8 year contracts when they come to sell unwanted players

 

[Tashyboy]

People leave jobs for other jobs on less pay every day. And don’t forget Maguire would still have been earning an obscene amount at West Ham.

Why, all of a sudden, are we pitying a player who, because of his poor performances at the top level, is going to have to take a step to an acknowledged lesser club?

It happens all the time, yet now the knives are out. Why?

Coz he is rammel and overpaid.

 

[Junior]

It's more the fact that united were stupid enough to offer him a contract that gave him a wage rise if he met a target . Which was met

So he is entitled to that contract

They should pay up

They could easily have lowered the price on his head by 5 mil so that we could pay him a sign on bonus of 5 million more to cover the costs

Couple of other avenues ....utd didnt and shouldn't have had to roll over.

West Ham could have paid him £5m more if they really wanted him ??

Or HM could have sacrificed 6 months salary in return for regular football.