Texas Scramble Allowance

[3offTheTee]

See Rules 22, 23 and 24 (in forms of play involving partners, a player's partner and the partner's caddie may take the same actions (with the same limitations) as the player's caddie may take under Rules 10.2b(2) and (4).

But I thought scrambles were not included in The Rules of Golf or words to that effect. That was why I asked.

 

[Colin L]

But I thought scrambles were not included in The Rules of Golf or words to that effect. That was why I asked.

That's right and that's why there needs to be a set of rules published for a scramble to make sure everyone does the same thing with regard to the differences from normal golf. But the deviations apart, it makes sense to play to the normal rules. You might begin scramble rules with a statement like "The scramble will be played by the Rules of Golf except for the following...." and then go on to specify the funnies like getting 4 goes at every shot.

As an aside, ours do not exceptionally allow the players in a side to queue up behind the one putting in order to get the line. I'm thinking, however, that since that's what people do it would be better just to say it's permissible. There's no point in being a rules purist when it comes to this format.

 

[williamalex1]

That's right and that's why there needs to be a set of rules published for a scramble to make sure everyone does the same thing with regard to the differences from normal golf. But the deviations apart, it makes sense to play to the normal rules. You might begin scramble rules with a statement like "The scramble will be played by the Rules of Golf except for the following...." and then go on to specify the funnies like getting 4 goes at every shot.

As an aside, ours do not exceptionally allow the players in a side to queue up behind the one putting in order to get the line. I'm thinking, however, that since that's what people do it would be better just to say it's permissible. There's no point in being a rules purist when it comes to this format.

I've played in a few Golf Scotland Texas scrambles where they allow standing/watching behind the player on the green, my club doesn't allow it.

 

[KenL]

Not in Scotland, near every club now has at least one Open scramble per year

A haven for cheats!

 

[Colin L]

A haven for cheats!

4 goes at every shot? The whole format is based on a cheat. The answer is to take away the money prizes, give everyone a token prize for turning up, throw in a few prizes for daft occurrences and have fun.

 

[rulie]

4 goes at every shot? The whole format is based on a cheat. The answer is to take away the money prizes, give everyone a token prize for turning up, throw in a few prizes for daft occurrences and have fun.

Similar to my preference - give the score winners a sleeve of balls, save the significant prizes for door prizes, where everyone has an equal chance to win. And have fun!

 

[Banchory Buddha]

A haven for cheats!

I don't think they are, the risk is always there though along with any closed grouping, like an am-am, or a 4bbb where both pairs are mates, or even just an Open, as it's almost unheard of now for these to be drawn, so often it's mates playing together. You just have to trust to honesty, or don't play them.

Personally we've stopped playing them, not because of cheating, but because of the new handicap allowances which take us out of the game (Our team is all 4-6 handicaps), we're not at the races now, played two since WHS came in, used to play 6 or so per year mostly at the arse end of the year

 

[3offTheTee]

Just going back to The Rules.

We had preferred lies on closely mown areas yesterday. One group ”forgot’ and place in the sand and the rough and were spotted and told.

Would that be a 2 stroke penalty for the 2 holes?

Realising what they had done they disqualified themselves. All the credit to them.

 

[rulefan]

Just going back to The Rules.

We had preferred lies on closely mown areas yesterday. One group ”forgot’ and place in the sand and the rough and were spotted and told.

Would that be a 2 stroke penalty for the 2 holes?

Realising what they had done they disqualified themselves. All the credit to them.

If they gained a significant advantage from playing from the wrong place and didn't correct the error, they would be DQd anyway. 14.7b(i)

 

[3offTheTee]

If they gained a significant advantage from playing from the wrong place and didn't correct the error, they would be DQd anyway. 14.7b(i)

Thanks.
Playing ‘devil’s advocate’ who determines whether it is a serious breach please and a General Penalty?

 

[Colin L]

Thet

Just going back to The Rules.

We had preferred lies on closely mown areas yesterday. One group ”forgot’ and place in the sand and the rough and were spotted and told.

Would that be a 2 stroke penalty for the 2 holes?

Realising what they had done they disqualified themselves. All the credit to them.

Have we moved away from scrambles? Were these players in a group in regular stroke play who preferred their lies in the rough and in bunkers when it was limited to closely mown areas?
If so, each time a player did so, he was breaching Rule 9.4b by lifting his ball without the authority of a rule. That's a one stroke penalty and he should have replaced.it By instead placing it on a different spot, he played from a wrong place, taking the penalty up to two strokes. While obviously he would be getting a better lie each time, whether the advantage was serious enough to require correction seems too difficult to answer without seeing the ground. The 2 stroke penalties might be sufficient, each breach being separate.

If this was a group in a scramble in which they were required to drop in the rough and in bunkers but forgot and placed, then the rule breached is 14.3b(3) which gets a two stroke penalty for each time a player does it. But being a scramble ,a penalty like this should be "attached" to the ball of the player concerned and only added to the side's score if that ball is chosen for the subsequent stroke. Assuming that the rule is that the player whose ball is chosen plays it as it lies, his ball would not have a penalty attached if chosen for the next stroke. Complicated? It is a bit. Let's just DQ them for being plonkers

 

[rulefan]

Thanks.
Playing ‘devil’s advocate’ who determines whether it is a serious breach please and a General Penalty?

Either a referee (if there is one) or normally the Committee.

If another player believes there has been a SB they should advise the player and inform the committee

Serious Breach
In stroke play, when playing from a wrong place could give the player a significant advantage compared to the stroke to be made from the right place.

In making this comparison to decide if there was a serious breach, the factors to be taken into account include:

• The difficulty of the stroke,
• The distance of the ball from the hole,
• The effect of obstacles on the line of play, and
• The conditions affecting the stroke.

The concept of a serious breach does not apply in match play, because a player loses the hole if he or she plays from a wrong place.

 

[Colin L]

Thanks.
Playing ‘devil’s advocate’ who determines whether it is a serious breach please and a General Penalty?

The Committee decides on serious breaches.

In the first instance, however, the player has to decide whether there is a possibility or likelihood of its being a serious breach and if he so decides, he has to hole out with his original ball and go back and correct the error by playing another from the right place. He must report the matter to the Committee. If the Committee decides there was a serious breach, the score with the second ball (the one played from the right place) is counted including a 2 stroke penalty. If the decision is that it wasn't a serious breach, the score with the ball played from the wrong place counts including a 2 stroke penalty. If the player is certain it was a serious breach he does not have to play out the first ball but can just correct the error.

I had an occasion to rule on this recently when a player's putt from on the putting green was deflected by a ladybird. He was unsure whether to carry on and play from where his ball lay or cancel the stroke and replay from its previous spot and so, being knowledgeable played two balls by holing the first out from where it lay and another from the previous The useful thing is that this procedure allows the player to carry on with his round rather than having to hold everything up waiting for a ruling. He let me know about it when he was passing me later and got his answer. He had done the right thing and no time had been wasted. Experts (you know who you are) keep out ?. Who's going to venture a ruling about which ball counted - top kudos for rule references?

Note: no ladybird was injured in the preparation of this example although I can't assess how indignant it may have been.

 

[Steven Rules]

Experts (you know who you are) keep out ?. Who's going to venture a ruling about which ball counted - top kudos for rule references?

Were there any (relevant) Local Rules in place?

 

[3offTheTee]

Were there any (relevant) Local Rules in place?

The ONLY local rule was Preferred lies in closely mown area.

 

[Colin L]

Were there any (relevant) Local Rules in place?

No, but by asking that question you must class yourself amongst the "experts'

 

[3offTheTee]

Thet


Have we moved away from scrambles? Were these players in a group in regular stroke play who preferred their lies in the rough and in bunkers when it was limited to closely mown areas?
If so, each time a player did so, he was breaching Rule 9.4b by lifting his ball without the authority of a rule. That's a one stroke penalty and he should have replaced.it By instead placing it on a different spot, he played from a wrong place, taking the penalty up to two strokes. While obviously he would be getting a better lie each time, whether the advantage was serious enough to require correction seems too difficult to answer without seeing the ground. The 2 stroke penalties might be sufficient, each breach being separate.

If this was a group in a scramble in which they were required to drop in the rough and in bunkers but forgot and placed, then the rule breached is 14.3b(3) which gets a two stroke penalty for each time a player does it. But being a scramble ,a penalty like this should be "attached" to the ball of the player concerned and only added to the side's score if that ball is chosen for the subsequent stroke. Assuming that the rule is that the player whose ball is chosen plays it as it lies, his ball would not have a penalty attached if chosen for the next stroke. Complicated? It is a bit. Let's just DQ them for being plonkers

This was ’our scramble‘ at the weekend which I referred to initially. Thank you for such a comprehensive reply

 

[3offTheTee]

The Committee decides on serious breaches.

In the first instance, however, the player has to decide whether there is a possibility or likelihood of its being a serious breach and if he so decides, he has to hole out with his original ball and go back and correct the error by playing another from the right place. He must report the matter to the Committee. If the Committee decides there was a serious breach, the score with the second ball (the one played from the right place) is counted including a 2 stroke penalty. If the decision is that it wasn't a serious breach, the score with the ball played from the wrong place counts including a 2 stroke penalty. If the player is certain it was a serious breach he does not have to play out the first ball but can just correct the error.

I had an occasion to rule on this recently when a player's putt from on the putting green was deflected by a ladybird. He was unsure whether to carry on and play from where his ball lay or cancel the stroke and replay from its previous spot and so, being knowledgeable played two balls by holing the first out from where it lay and another from the previous The useful thing is that this procedure allows the player to carry on with his round rather than having to hold everything up waiting for a ruling. He let me know about it when he was passing me later and got his answer. He had done the right thing and no time had been wasted. Experts (you know who you are) keep out ?. Who's going to venture a ruling about which ball counted - top kudos for rule references?

Note: no ladybird was injured in the preparation of this example although I can't assess how indignant it may have been.

Well seeing I started the thread and not being an expert. In Strokeplay:

• The player should choose which ball will count if the Rules allow the procedure used for that ball, by announcing that choice to his or her marker or to another player before making a stroke.

Rule 20 (c) 3

Always ready to be corrected by more knowledgeable members on here

 

[Colin L]

That's the rule under which he played two balls because of his uncertainty as to the correct procedure. ? (It's a rule everyone who competes should know as it can even save a DQ. )

Fortunately, I was able to confirm the one he chose to count was the one which which was played correctly according to the rules. But which was the correct one? Playing from where the ball lay or cancelling and replaying the stroke? ?

 

[backwoodsman]

That's the rule under which he played two balls because of his uncertainty as to the correct procedure. ? (It's a rule everyone who competes should know as it can even save a DQ. )

Fortunately, I was able to confirm the one he chose to count was the one which which was played correctly according to the rules. But which was the correct one? Playing from where the ball lay or cancelling and replaying the stroke? ?

Cancel stroke & replace on original spot? Rule 11.1b exception 2 ??