Tee box distance markers

[bladeplayer]

Two questions i have been asked i would like your advice on please .. neither really important , just curious

Every tee has a permanent distance marker and the tee markers/blocks of the day, so they can be moved around a bit to save the tee box , ok ? in a competition

(1) can the or some of the tee's of the day be located behind the permanent marker ? ie course is playing longer that measured ?

(2) you are allowed the option of 2 club lenghts behind the tee marker , what if they are positioned that you cannot use this option if you wanted to , ie too close to a boundary or wall etc

Could both or either deem the comp to be non qualifier ?

Thanks

Bill

 

[FairwayDodger]

1. Not sure
2. Yes, non qualifier.

 

[Foxholer]

You are allowed up to 100 yards difference (+/-) from a measured course and still be a qualifier.

It could be made up of 15 holes 10 yards in front and 3 holes 20 yards behind the 'blocks'. Some years ago, if any hole was more than 10 yards out from the measured course, it was NQ.

There is a requirement to allow space for a proper swing from the tees. I don't believe this needs to be the case from 2 Club lengths back though.

 

[duncan mackie]

1 Yes - in exactly the same way as they can be in front at times!

Clubs should endeavour to maintain their course at its measured length at all times for Qualifying
Competitions. However, it is accepted that the placing of tees for competitions will be subject to many
influencing factors, particularly the condition of teeing grounds,which may mean on some occasions the
precise definition of the Competition Tee cannot be satisfied. This should not, of itself, render the
competition Non-Qualifying. Such a tee placement may be regarded as temporary and the provisions of
Clause 3. would then apply, provided that the ‘Temporary’ tee still meets the requirements of the Rules
of Golf.Thus in instances where a tee(s), does not meet the precise Competition Tee definition, provided
that the course is not shortened (or lengthened) overall by more than 00 yards (9 metres) the
Competition should remain Qualifying and the allocated Standard Scratch Score will apply.

2. NQ - but note that the 2 cl area doesn't have to be a prepared teeing area, just a reasonably usable one!

Committees should bear in mind the definition of Teeing Ground in the Rules of Golf which states: “It
is a rectangular area two club lengths in depth, the front and sides of which are defined by the outside
limits of two tee markers.”
The tee markers should be placed in such a position that the player has the benefit of the full depth to
which the definition entitles him.

Dec 7b (c) goes on to explain that if this is not available the competition should be NQ

 

[bladeplayer]

Thank you all for your answers , much appreciated

 

[stevelev]

DM,

1. Would it still be a qualilifier if the 2 CL from the markers for the day took you outside the prepared teeing ground onto a steep slope with 4inch long grass?

2. Also by using the 2 CL if you move to the most rear part of this rectangle and you are unable to make a swing due to a fence being only 3 feet away would that deem it a non-qualifier?

3. What would be the usual course of action to approach the green staff in relation to marking the course out for the days comps so we can ensure this doesn't happen moving forward?

Thanks in advance oh wise one.

 

[rulefan]

1) The RoG do not specify the quality of the teeing ground

2) The 2cl is intended to be used to its full extent. The player will have to move towards the front of the teeing ground.
But see clause (b) below.

3) Give them a copy of
Decision 7(b)
On some golf courses the placing of Distance Points at the back of the tees has made it difficult to conform to the definition of a teeing ground in the Rules of Golf and also to satisfy the requirements of Clause 2 of the UHS.
In order to clarify the situation and ensure that Qualifying Competitions are played over courses of correct length the following provisions now apply:
(a) Distance Points on all new courses and on any new holes or holes that have had their length altered on existing courses must be placed not less than four yards from the back of each tee.
(b) On a reassessment of an existing Standard Scratch Score the calculation must provide for each hole being measured from a point not less than four yards forward of the back of each tee.
(c) Any competition played over a course which fails to provide teeing grounds as defined by the Rules of Golf or to satisfy Clause 2 of the UHS shall be a Non Qualifying Competition.
(d) In exceptional circumstances a Union or Area Authority may sanction in writing the use of a Teeing Ground that does not satisfy these requirements.

 

[duncan mackie]

DM,

1. Would it still be a qualilifier if the 2 CL from the markers for the day took you outside the prepared teeing ground onto a steep slope with 4inch long grass?

2. Also by using the 2 CL if you move to the most rear part of this rectangle and you are unable to make a swing due to a fence being only 3 feet away would that deem it a non-qualifier?

3. What would be the usual course of action to approach the green staff in relation to marking the course out for the days comps so we can ensure this doesn't happen moving forward?

Thanks in advance oh wise one.

I can only give you the definition - posted above.

The CONGU rider (to the Rules quote) would seem to suggest that a fence across the back of the area, or steep incline, would be reasonably interpreted as denying a player the use of the full teeing specification but that a flat area mown to fairway height 1mm above tee ground height wouldn't.

Then there are the additional issues of overhanging trees and tee markers on raised teeing areas placed full width (so that a player is unable to reasonably take a stance when teeing his ball within the teeing area) - I've even seen waste bin/ball washer assemblies defined as Immovable Obstructions and positioned such that they would interfere with the play of a ball correctly teed within the teeing area! The full width one is usually a bigger practical issue than the use of the back of the teeing area; the latter tending to occur because someone has put the measured course plates right at the back to get a longer course on the card and no-one's explained to the green staff that they can put the markers out in front by about 8ft each time! New ratings will always measure from an appropriate point rather than the plates now.

I've also been at professional tournaments where sponsor boards have clearly encroached on this rear limit - but providing the available area is well prepared no-ones going to complain (although the tournament director will normally sort it out quickly!).

Like many of the technical infringements that happen (all the time - many commented on here) it's only when they affect the proper playing of the game that they are going to be taken up with 'the authorities' and any question of the status of handicaps issued etc becomes live. The education of the greens staff should be the solution to your Q3 such that they avoid the issues in Q's 1&2. I don't think there's a right approach re how wide to set them relative to the available area - after all, if they are set to the full width they inherently provide the widest available options after all.

 

[rulefan]

I don't think there's a right approach re how wide to set them relative to the available area - after all, if they are set to the full width they inherently provide the widest available options after all.

The R&A have recommended that teeing grounds should not be more than about 6 paces wide. This is to enable the player to tee his ball behind the front margin accurately. Too wide and the players sometimes have difficulty in alignment.
There should also be enough space each side to enable left and right handed players to place the ball at either extremity without constraining their stance.

 

[CMAC]

we have a tee that is so far back you can only tee up in line with the boxes and up to about 1 foot further back, or your swing will hit gorse bushes. You also cannot use close to the box facing you (right hand player) or again your driver will hit a branch.

Are you saying this is illegal and the comp should be a non qualifier for handicap, up and down? or is the fact you can play from a small section ok?

 

[rulefan]

we have a tee that is so far back you can only tee up in line with the boxes and up to about 1 foot further back, or your swing will hit gorse bushes. You also cannot use close to the box facing you (right hand player) or again your driver will hit a branch.

Are you saying this is illegal and the comp should be a non qualifier for handicap, up and down? or is the fact you can play from a small section ok?

This clause from the CONGU decision (quoted above) would suggest not.

(c) Any competition played over a course which fails to provide teeing grounds as defined by the Rules of Golf or to satisfy Clause 2 of the UHS shall be a Non Qualifying Competition.

 

[CMAC]

This clause from the CONGU decision (quoted above) would suggest not.

(c) Any competition played over a course which fails to provide teeing grounds as defined by the Rules of Golf or to satisfy Clause 2 of the UHS shall be a Non Qualifying Competition.

Thanks, does non qualifying mean handicaps cannot go up or down? whats the actual definition of non qualifying? i.e does it mean no-one can actually win the comp etc

 

[rulefan]

Thanks, does non qualifying mean handicaps cannot go up or down? whats the actual definition of non qualifying? i.e does it mean no-one can actually win the comp etc

A Qualifying Competition is any competition in which Competition Play Conditions prevail and for handicap adjustment and record purposes full handicap allowance is applied and a Competition Scratch Score is calculated,subject to restrictions and limitations contained in the UHS or imposed by a Union. Handicaps may go up or down.

It has nothing to do with Competition prizes awarded by the committee or organisers.


In certain circumstances (usually severe bad weather) a competition may be declared 'Reduction Only' when only reductions are applied

A Qualifying Competition for Reduction Only is determined by the Competition Scratch Score calculation as specified in Clause 18.4 or by the abandonment of competitions as outlined in Clause 18.7. (The Committee in charge of a competition must not declare a Qualifying Competition to be for Reduction Only).
Note: A Committee does not have the authority to organise a competition in which handicaps can be reduced but not increased i.e. pre-determine that a competition is for handicap ‘Reduction Only’.

 

[CMAC]

A Qualifying Competition is any competition in which Competition Play Conditions prevail and for handicap adjustment and record purposes full handicap allowance is applied and a Competition Scratch Score is calculated,subject to restrictions and limitations contained in the UHS or imposed by a Union. Handicaps may go up or down.

It has nothing to do with Competition prizes awarded by the committee or organisers.


In certain circumstances (usually severe bad weather) a competition may be declared 'Reduction Only' when only reductions are applied

A Qualifying Competition for Reduction Only is determined by the Competition Scratch Score calculation as specified in Clause 18.4 or by the abandonment of competitions as outlined in Clause 18.7. (The Committee in charge of a competition must not declare a Qualifying Competition to be for Reduction Only).
Note: A Committee does not have the authority to organise a competition in which handicaps can be reduced but not increased i.e. pre-determine that a competition is for handicap ‘Reduction Only’.

as it would not be 'organised' as the rule break would be pointed out after a round or comp finished, then if it is a non qualifier then no handicap reductions or increases nor CSS would legally apply. Is that correct?

sorry if I'm not understanding your answers but I'm finding them hard to decipher.

 

[rulefan]

as it would not be 'organised' as the rule break would be pointed out after a round or comp finished, then if it is a non qualifier then no handicap reductions or increases nor CSS would legally apply. Is that correct?

sorry if I'm not understanding your answers but I'm finding them hard to decipher.

What do you mean by 'not organised' ?
All handicap competitions run under the auspices if CONGU (ie all those in the UK & Ireland) must have a Committee responsible for the competition. It cannot qualify for handicapping purposes otherwise.

eg A Saturday 'roll up' cannot be considered for handicap purposes by a club

 

[Foxholer]

Several years ago, I pointed out a supposed Qualifying comp that had to be turned into a NQ as not only had Greenies knocked more than 10 yards off virtually every tee, but 1 hole had been shortened by about 80yds due to 'repairs' on the course! In all, it was some 250 yds shorter than the 'measured' course, but that fact wasn't discovered until after most of the comp had been completed!

There's no reason why, given other conditions are satisfied, some/all members of a Saturday Roll-Up couldn't elect to put in Supplementary Cards!

 

[rosecott]

Several years ago, I pointed out a supposed Qualifying comp that had to be turned into a NQ as not only had Greenies knocked more than 10 yards off virtually every tee, but 1 hole had been shortened by about 80yds due to 'repairs' on the course! In all, it was some 250 yds shorter than the 'measured' course, but that fact wasn't discovered until after most of the comp had been completed!

There's no reason why, given other conditions are satisfied, some/all members of a Saturday Roll-Up couldn't elect to put in Supplementary Cards!

Give you even money they wouldn't.

 

[CMAC]

What do you mean by 'not organised' ?

you wrote "Note: A Committee does not have the authority to organise a competition in which handicaps can be reduced...."

 

[rulefan]

you wrote "Note: A Committee does not have the authority to organise a competition in which handicaps can be reduced...."

Handicap adjustments may only be made in competitions organised by an authorised body (eg club, county etc).
They may only run a qualifying competition where handicaps are adjusted up and down, unless the situation arises where the competition automatically becomes 'reduction only'(RO). They cannot specify this in advance nor can they make it RO after the event. The scores determine this.

 

[rulefan]

Several years ago, I pointed out a supposed Qualifying comp that had to be turned into a NQ as not only had Greenies knocked more than 10 yards off virtually every tee, but 1 hole had been shortened by about 80yds due to 'repairs' on the course! In all, it was some 250 yds shorter than the 'measured' course, but that fact wasn't discovered until after most of the comp had been completed!

There's no reason why, given other conditions are satisfied, some/all members of a Saturday Roll-Up couldn't elect to put in Supplementary Cards!

1) Given advance notice, the SSS could have been adjusted under Clause 13.1

2) Of course they would have to declare and register their intent before playing.