tears of laughter but what's the ruling.

[backwoodsman]

But don't overlook that as I mentioned, 19-3 does deal with the ball being stopped by and resting in or on your opponent's inanimate equipment in match play.

In the case of of the spectator who collected McIlory's drive in his trouser pocket, he was probably lucky it did not render his equipment inanimate.

But your oppo's kit isn't an OA.

 

[Sweep]

I plead guilty at the end of a long day, a large Tanqueray and a few glasses of a rather tasty Merlot of too readily assuming I had made a mistake and Mr Foxholer would be correct.

Now Mr Foxholer. Your ball is stopped by your fellow competitor's bag and so you look to 19-4 regarding a ball deflected or stopped by a fellow competitor's equipment. That refers you to 19-1 since the bag is an outside agency and you are told to play the ball as it lies. But does 19-1 tell you what to do if the ball is in or on an inanimate outside agency. Does any other part of Rule 19 tell us? Only if it is your opponent's equipment. If you do not want to play your ball as it lies, how do you get out of your fix? By realising that your ball is lying on a movable obstruction and applying 24-1b, perhaps?

In 2014, why do you need to be a lawyer to play the game of golf?

 

[backwoodsman]

In 2014, why do you need to be a lawyer to play the game of golf?

You don't. You just need to be able to read. And understand. (Which is where I usually slip up).

 

[Tashyboy]

Watched that clip with Rory and one of the PP actually quoted in the club house that moment and I did not have a clue what he was on about. And he said that's why I don't think there is any penalty shots for anyone.

 

[Foxholer]

I plead guilty at the end of a long day, a large Tanqueray and a few glasses of a rather tasty Merlot of too readily assuming I had made a mistake and Mr Foxholer would be correct.

Now Mr Foxholer. Your ball is stopped by your fellow competitor's bag and so you look to 19-4 regarding a ball deflected or stopped by a fellow competitor's equipment. That refers you to 19-1 since the bag is an outside agency and you are told to play the ball as it lies. But does 19-1 tell you what to do if the ball is in or on an inanimate outside agency. Does any other part of Rule 19 tell us? Only if it is your opponent's equipment. If you do not want to play your ball as it lies, how do you get out of your fix? By realising that your ball is lying on a movable obstruction and applying 24-1b, perhaps?

I agree! That's why the drop is free.

The title of 19.4 is so specific that it has to be applied. It then unequivocally directs to 19-1, so that has to be applied. Using the 'read completely literally (and nothing more)' rule, it DOES tell you how to handle inanimate OAs - play it as it lies.

Now the question is... is that the only option? And, as you state, the FC's bag is (also) a Moveable Obstruction, so 24-1 (b) can be applied.

@Backwoodsman. I believe you have read too much into the status a player's bag when he is carrying it - see the 'read completely literally phrase above. Unless you can point me to the bit in the rules where it specifies the status changes, then a player's own bag being carried is still simply 'players equipment' (own, FC's or Opponent's as appropriate)!

But it is important to go 'through the process' of 19-4 ---> 19-1 (and then ----> 24-1b - and even 20-2!) rather than simply going direct to 24-1b. Otherwise, the difference between a FC's bag and a player's own etc would not be considered.

 

[backwoodsman]

I agree! That's why the drop is free.

The title of 19.4 is so specific that it has to be applied. It then unequivocally directs to 19-1, so that has to be applied. Using the 'read completely literally (and nothing more)' rule, it DOES tell you how to handle inanimate OAs - play it as it lies.

Now the question is... is that the only option? And, as you state, the FC's bag is (also) a Moveable Obstruction, so 24-1 (b) can be applied.

@Backwoodsman. I believe you have read too much into the status a player's bag when he is carrying it - see the 'read completely literally phrase above. Unless you can point me to the bit in the rules where it specifies the status changes, then a player's own bag being carried is still simply 'players equipment' (own, FC's or Opponent's as appropriate)!

But it is important to go 'through the process' of 19-4 ---> 19-1 (and then ----> 24-1b - and even 20-2!) rather than simply going direct to 24-1b. Otherwise, the difference between a FC's bag and a player's own etc would not be considered.

Not sure we're at odds? 19-4 is merely confirmation that an FC and his equipment are an outside agency (and therefore have different status to PPs and oppo's and their kit which by definition are not OAs)

 

[Foxholer]

Not sure we're at odds? 19-4 is merely confirmation that an FC and his equipment are an outside agency (and therefore have different status to PPs and oppo's and their kit which by definition are not OAs)

It was this bit that I was challenging...

...Now if Tashyboy had been walking past carrying his bag at the time the ball landed in it, 19-1 would be the right rule but in this case it's 24-1b as Colin says

There's no difference between whether it's being carried or is stationary. The 19-4 --> 19-1 (---> 24-1b) process has to start at 19-4.

You can't go direct to 24-1b. There would be no penalty for same situation(s), with Partner's bag if you did!

 

[backwoodsman]

Still dont think we're at odds. I think i just make the error of not distinguishing between 19-1 generally and 19-1a specifically. If he was walking then 19-1a via 19-4 applies. If the bag was stationary then it's 19-1, play it as it lies, except you can then invoke the obstructions rule.

As an aside, why is rule 19-4 not superfluous? An FC and his kit is/are an outside agency. So why have 19-4 to say 'deal with it as an outside agency'?

 

[Foxholer]

Still dont think we're at odds. I think i just make the error of not distinguishing between 19-1 generally and 19-1a specifically. If he was walking then 19-1a via 19-4 applies. If the bag was stationary then it's 19-1, play it as it lies, except you can then invoke the obstructions rule....

Where does it differentiate between a stationary bag (or any other equipment) and one in motion?

If it had been a Partner's bag in a pairs match, would you differentiate between ruling for a balling hitting a bag that was parked and one hitting a bag that was being carried? Or equivalent if it was the opponent's bag in a match?

Just because a bag has been 'parked', as opposed to being carried/pushed/pulled, doesn't alter its status. It's still the specific player's equipment!

...
As an aside, why is rule 19-4 not superfluous? An FC and his kit is/are an outside agency. So why have 19-4 to say 'deal with it as an outside agency'?

True. But simpler to cover all the possibilities in the one place. Sometimes superfluous direction/description is worthwhile or, at least, does no harm.

 

[rulefan]

As an aside, why is rule 19-4 not superfluous? An FC and his kit is/are an outside agency. So why have 19-4 to say 'deal with it as an outside agency'?

It has the bonus benefit of reminding people that FC's equipment is also an OA.

 

[duncan mackie]

As an aside, why is rule 19-4 not superfluous? An FC and his kit is/are an outside agency. So why have 19-4 to say 'deal with it as an outside agency'?

surely this is because they have more than one status?
here (19-4) we are told that their status as OAs is the only one relevant to this rule, and therefore see 19-1.

 

[Sweep]

You don't. You just need to be able to read. And understand. (Which is where I usually slip up).

I agree, but actually here we are 7 or more posts later still discussing which rule applies and takes precedence, reading rules literally etc. All that happened was a ball landed in a bag. To be fair its the same with a lot of posts on rules. It's no different than arguing a case in Court.
"My Lord, if it pleases the Court I would like to bring your attention to the case which has a precedence here, McIlroy v The Spectators Pocket 2013"
And they wonder why no one takes up golf anymore.
And with that, my lord, I rest my case.

 

[backwoodsman]

Where does it differentiate between a stationary bag (or any other equipment) and one in motion?

If it had been a Partner's bag in a pairs match, would you differentiate between ruling for a balling hitting a bag that was parked and one hitting a bag that was being carried? Or equivalent if it was the opponent's bag in a match?

Just because a bag has been 'parked', as opposed to being carried/pushed/pulled, doesn't alter its status. It's still the specific player's equipment!



True. But simpler to cover all the possibilities in the one place. Sometimes superfluous direction/description is worthwhile or, at least, does no harm.

A partners bag is not an OA and if a players ball is deflected by it, it is covered by 19_2 . And 19_2 does not make a distinction as to whether it is moving or not. So, no, I'd not make a difference. But an FCs bag is an OA and the situation is covered by 19_1 (via 19_4) and 19_1a refers only to moving or animate OAs. There's your differentiation.

 

[Foxholer]

A partners bag is not an OA and if a players ball is deflected by it, it is covered by 19_2 . And 19_2 does not make a distinction as to whether it is moving or not. So, no, I'd not make a difference. But an FCs bag is an OA and the situation is covered by 19_1 (via 19_4) and 19_1a refers only to moving or animate OAs. There's your differentiation.

Gotcha! :thup: 19-1a (moving) doesn't require 24-1b for the 'Drop' to apply; 19-1 (stationary) does (in this case). My 'bad'!

 

[backwoodsman]

Gotcha! :thup: 19-1a (moving) doesn't require 24-1b for the 'Drop' to apply; 19-1 (stationary) does (in this case). My 'bad'!

???

I now don't understand what point is being made.