Sorry, another rules question

[Region3]

I hope I describe this well enough for the rules experts to understand. It has come up a couple of times in the last month or so at my club.

Player is 200yds from the green, and there is a ditch (yellow markers) filled with reeds and weeds about 80yds short of the green. After the ditch the ground rises up to the green and because of the contours of it you can't always see your ball if it finishes between the ditch and the green.

The players thins his shot and it rockets towards the ditch no more than a foot off the ground but no-one sees it all the way.

Because of the garbage in the ditch, and the fact that the far side of it is taller than the near side, the ball will either be in the ditch, or have got through and will be easily found up near the green.
If the ball isn't found on the other side it's 99.9% certain to be in the ditch.

Does the player have to walk up to the green to see if his ball got over, and if it didn't then go back and take a penalty drop from the hazard, or can he drop a ball as if he were in the ditch, play it provisionally, then go to look for his ball and play it if he finds it?

My first thought was you can't provisionally drop because if you think it might be on the other side then it's not almost certain to be in the hazard, but then I thought if the players looks on the other side and doesn't find it, then it is almost certainly in the hazard

 

[RGDave]

or can he drop a ball as if he were in the ditch, play it provisionally, then go to look for his ball and play it if he finds it?

this is what I'd do.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I'm not sure you can. I thought you had to be certain of it being in the hazard and as you say the terrain after the ditch makes it hard to see there is not guarantee the ball didn't cross the hazard and actually shoot through the back of the green

 

[Imurg]

Doesn't dropping another ball automatically make it the ball in play?
Should the "provisional" be taken from where the last shot was played and not at the hazard...?

 

[Yerman]

Homers right you have to be certain its in the hazard ie to have clearly seen it go in or find and identify it in the hazard; otherwise its back to where the last was take form for a drop and loss of stroke and distance.

 

[Imurg]

These days can't you be "virtually certain" that a ball has gone in a hazard? If you have low grass all around a hazard and the ball isn't there then its virtually certain to have gone in.

 

[JT77]

I dont think you can play a provisional over a yellow staked hazard. you have have to check on the other side first, if it is not there then you return to the other side of the hazard to play, providing you can confirm your ball is in the hazard. If you cannot say 100% that the ball is in the hazard it becomes a lost ball, and a ball then would be replayed from the place the original ball was played.
hope that makes sense and also hope it is correct!

 

[Leftie]

And that, Merlot permitting, is, I think, the right answer hic

 

[Tommo21]

Dont play a prov unless you think the ball may be lost OUTSIDE the hazard, so there would need to be areas like rough outside the hazard line where the ball could be lost. If you do that and you dont find your ball it's fair to say it's lost outside the hazard if there is no clear evinence that it went in when the shot was hit. Now, if you play a prov, thinking it could be lost outside the hazard and you see or find your ball inside the hazard the prov must be lifted....no penalty. You cannot take up the prov as a option.......how clear is that.

 

[Region3]

There is no chance the ball may be lost outside the hazard. It's either in the hazard or somewhere between the ditch and the green (or maybe through the back) but there's nowhere outside the ditch to lose a ball in.

The idea of playing a prov from a penalty drop out of the hazard is just to save time if the ball isn't found further up the hole.

From the replies so far it sounds like you go look for your ball up near the green and if it isn't there come back to the other side of the hazard and take the penalty drop?

 

[USER1999]

So few of the rules of golf are designed for a crowded course on a Saturday morning.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I would say that if the ball could be lost either in the ditch or through the green some 100 yards away then if you look for it through the green and can't find it then you can't just assume it's in the ditch. The time saving provisional should be played from the original spot before you go and look either in the ditch or through the green. If you don't find the original then the prov becomes the ball in play.

 

[Ethan]

I would say that if the ball could be lost either in the ditch or through the green some 100 yards away then if you look for it through the green and can't find it then you can't just assume it's in the ditch. The time saving provisional should be played from the original spot before you go and look either in the ditch or through the green. If you don't find the original then the prov becomes the ball in play.

I agree. The rule says it must be known of virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard. In this example, you would need some evidence it is in the water - someone seeing it, a splash, ripples or a dead fisherman floating on the surface. A ball could be in a rabbit hole, under a tuft of grass at the fairway edge or have taken a weird bounce and kicked somewhere else.

 

[JustOne]

So few of the rules of golf are designed for a crowded course on a Saturday morning.

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Wot he said.

I think it's pathetic that you have to find your ball in a hazard.... like you can actually SEE to the bottom of that brown, murky, poison filled water.

They should change the rule so that all courses have to employ ball spotters to stand by each and every hazard

 

[HawkeyeMS]

So few of the rules of golf are designed for a crowded course on a Saturday morning.

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Wot he said.

I think it's pathetic that you have to find your ball in a hazard.... like you can actually SEE to the bottom of that brown, murky, poison filled water.

They should change the rule so that all courses have to employ ball spotters to stand by each and every hazard

You don't have to find it, you just have to be virtually certain that it went in. To me, that means if you and all your playing partners believe that the ball went in the hazard , then you are virtually certain it went in the hazard.

Unfortunately in this example, if the ball could be in the hazard or through the green some 100 yards away, then you can't be anywhere close to certain that the ball is in the hazard.

 

[Ethan]

So few of the rules of golf are designed for a crowded course on a Saturday morning.

^
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Wot he said.

I think it's pathetic that you have to find your ball in a hazard.... like you can actually SEE to the bottom of that brown, murky, poison filled water.

They should change the rule so that all courses have to employ ball spotters to stand by each and every hazard

You don't have to find it, you just have to be virtually certain that it went in. To me, that means if you and all your playing partners believe that the ball went in the hazard , then you are virtually certain it went in the hazard.

Unfortunately in this example, if the ball could be in the hazard or through the green some 100 yards away, then you can't be anywhere close to certain that the ball is in the hazard.

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Wot he said