Smartphones now legal

I'm probably being thick, but that makes no sense.

You go from this:

Does the device contain other applications or features that, if referenced at any time during a round, might assist the player in his play (e.g., anemometer, thermometer or club recommendation)?

Which, if answered YES is a break with the note: Note: Applies to all devices even if the additional information is not used or is disabled/ switched off

However, if you say, NO, you get to:

Does the device contain other applications or features which, if used in a specific way, could assist the player in his play (e.g., camera, video camera or spirit level)?

it now says:

Provided applications or features are not used during a round in such a way that might assist the player in his play

So which is it> Don't use them and you're OK, or even if they are switched off you're in breach?
 
Rooter said:
What about this app?

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/wind-meter/id306375551?mt=8

don't even have to have it installed, the hardware is capable of doing it.... so it would be a "feature"?

i am just playing devils advocate, i think its stupid and smartphones should be allowed...
Click to expand...

I think that the governing bodies are simply trying to look ahead to what might come in respect of apps if they permit use of smartphones as they are and might become. So they are being as strict as possible about limiting any bit of kit's use to measuring distance and limiting the use of other technologies a smartphone currently and might have incorporated.

They have basically done some risk analysis and are implementing risk mitigation and avoidance measures (I know how much you lot love risk management as a subject so I'm sure that you'll be fully appreciative and supportive of their efforts :))
 
bluewolf said:
But once again, that info is not exact, and is at best, educated guesswork...
Click to expand...

Irrelevant anyway now! Just reading mag and feature on 14/15 decisions and it is allowed now to use a weather to check for forthcoming storms etc as long as its not to directly help play. Decision
14-3/18.
 
...so @woody69 quotes cameras and video cameras from the rules. And we might ask "what possible use could that information be?" The answer today might be "no use whatsoever" - but who knows what could be around the corner if it were allowed.

So they mitigate the risk of that unknown around the corner - and the camera info being used for other than distance measuring - by saying the information can't be used at all from the word go.
 
The key distinction being made seems to be between

A. things which you can reference for on the spot information that could assist you in your play (such as temperature or wind speed) - if present, then you can't use the device as a DMD even if these are switched off;

and

B. things which you can make use of i.e. devices which you have to operate in some way in order to gain the information which you would then interpret to assist your play - if present then you are OK to use the device as a DMD as long as you don't use any of these features such as a camera, a spirit level.

Nothing new in A, but a bit of relaxation in B. Perhaps the idea in B is that if you have to use something like a camera in order to get information which you then have to process, you are a step away from that information compared with A where the information is there at the press of a button. Which is perhaps all because it would be pretty obvious if a player were using his phone's spirit level/camera etc whereas referencing information say on wind speed could be more readily concealed. So allow the presence of features which you can't use easily without being caught, but continue to disallow the presence of features the use of which you can hide?
 
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as I've stated before- even if you provide wind speed, barometer readings, slope levels, elevation, temperature etc etc we will all still duff,thin,slice,fat...........:cool:
 
Colin L said:
The key distinction being made seems to be between

A. things which you can reference for on the spot information that could assist you in your play (such as temperature or wind speed) - if present, then you can't use the device as a DMD even if these are switched off;

and

B. things which you can make use of i.e. devices which you have to operate in some way in order to gain the information which you would then interpret to assist your play - if present then you are OK to use the device as a DMD as long as you don't use any of these features such as a camera, a spirit level.

Nothing new in A, but a bit of relaxation in B. Perhaps the idea in B is that if you have to use something like a camera in order to get information which you then have to process, you are a step away from that information compared with A where the information is there at the press of a button. Which is perhaps all because it would be pretty obvious if a player were using his phone's spirit level/camera etc whereas referencing information say on wind speed could be more readily concealed. So allow the presence of features which you can't use easily without being caught, but continue to disallow the presence of features the use of which you can hide?
Click to expand...
That seems to be my thoughts too.

I expect the R&A will publish an equivalent shortly.

It would be helpful if there was a list of devices and whether they conform - in their 'natural' state. As the devices are not purely for golf, I'm not sure how likely that will be to arrive in the near future.
 
This all petty anyway,surely if your playing you can tell when it is windy? Just throw up some grass and see it blow, and by the same deduction I'm pretty sure I know when it's cold as well because my skin tells me and my nose runs!
Really do we need to be so petty? Dmd's are great for distance but you still have to hit the shot!i really wouldn't care if my playing partner had the temperature the wind speed and direction and uses an accelerometer to test stomp speed.
 
So, if a player has a very low tech computing "device" (pen and paper) and notes down a club recommendation for each distance between 100 and 200 yards, sticks this in his bag then refers to it when he's decided how far away he is, is his "device" legal? I see very little difference between this and an app which will take the distance measured by the GPS receiver and display a pre-programmed club recommendation based on that number.

I've said before, all that is needed is a rule that says.....
"getting distance information from a device with such capability is allowed. Getting other information such as <insert long list here> isn't".
Where they are going wrong, and have consistently done so is that they are trying to rule on the device itself rather than the information it gives and it's use. There is no rule stopping me carrying a spirit level or thermometer in my bag but I can't use the information they may give me to help me. If I have the same (in the form of apps) on my phone, the whole device may be deemed illegal even if the info is not used which is ludicrous and inconsistent. I appreciate that this ruling clarifies things a little as it will be interpreted that nearly all phone apps will be fine but it's still IMO focusing on the wrong thing.
 
Fyldewhite said:
So, if a player has a very low tech computing "device" (pen and paper) and notes down a club recommendation for each distance between 100 and 200 yards, sticks this in his bag then refers to it when he's decided how far away he is, is his "device" legal? I see very little difference between this and an app which will take the distance measured by the GPS receiver and display a pre-programmed club recommendation based on that number.

I've said before, all that is needed is a rule that says.....
"getting distance information from a device with such capability is allowed. Getting other information such as <insert long list here> isn't".
Where they are going wrong, and have consistently done so is that they are trying to rule on the device itself rather than the information it gives and it's use. There is no rule stopping me carrying a spirit level or thermometer in my bag but I can't use the information they may give me to help me. If I have the same (in the form of apps) on my phone, the whole device may be deemed illegal even if the info is not used which is ludicrous and inconsistent. I appreciate that this ruling clarifies things a little as it will be interpreted that nearly all phone apps will be fine but it's still IMO focusing on the wrong thing.
Click to expand...

Well no, because a pen and paper isn't a device that tells you how far you currently are from the green?
 
So, is the answer to the question ... Can I use my phone as a DMD as long as I only use that feature on the phone during my round? ... Now yes or no?
 
Well following the flow chart it appears to me that smart phones are still not allowed, however I guess this depends how you interpret the chart as you can read it and say it is OK to use a phone...........

I guess most phones have a way to measure temperature and can use a live weather app.

Further to this I cannot see Garmin etc. taking this laying down where a £150 device can be replaced with a £10 app
 
a £10 app on a £200+ device

or a glorified tomtom which cost £50+ more than a standard satnav!!!!

as I dont play comps anymore it doesnt affect me, I await a local ruling on KOK :)
 
NorfolkShaun said:
Well following the flow chart it appears to me that smart phones are still not allowed, however I guess this depends how you interpret the chart as you can read it and say it is OK to use a phone...........

I guess most phones have a way to measure temperature and can use a live weather app.

Further to this I cannot see Garmin etc. taking this laying down where a £150 device can be replaced with a £10 app
Click to expand...

Most phones do not have a thermometer to measure ambient temperature, they have temperature sensors to detect when the phone itself is overheating. This could not be used to measure ambient temperature on the golf course.

And access to weather apps is allowed.

So I'm reading that as mobile phones are now allowed as DMD's.
 
ger147 said:
Most phones do not have a thermometer to measure ambient temperature, they have temperature sensors to detect when the phone itself is overheating. This could not be used to measure ambient temperature on the golf course.

And access to weather apps is allowed.

So I'm reading that as mobile phones are now allowed as DMD's.
Click to expand...

Whoops missed the bit at the bottom re weather apps :rolleyes:
 
woody69 said:
Well no, because a pen and paper isn't a device that tells you how far you currently are from the green?
Click to expand...

Think about the functionality. You look at your legal DMD (or the 150 marker etc) and you get a number. You then refer to something that tells you for that number what club you should hit. Does it matter if that is a piece of paper, a word document on a laptop which you could quite legally have in your bag or the dreaded phone app? It's the same information. I cannot understand why the way it is presented is of any relevance.

Anyway, I was only trying to illustrate (perhaps poorly :-( ) that legislating against devices is the wrong way to do this. Golf is a game based on trust and honesty when it come to rules and saying that golfers can't be trusted to use an iPhone DMD app without surrepticiously checking the wind direction, level of the green, swing routines and God knows what else is rediculous when we trust players to be deep in the woods, miles from anyone and not utilise the leather wedge.
 
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