Slow play again

[Griffsters]

If only there was an outright solution where faster players didn't get held up behind average/slower players.

Is it right that marathon races have the fastest athletes at the front of the field, followed by the club runners with the slowest towards the rear?


''the men’s elite race sets off just before the mass start at 9.40am. Then the fast runners go off at around 9.40am, with waves of runners then departing up until the last runners between 11-11.30am.''

London Marathon Start Time: When Does The 2024 Race Begin?

Your exact London Marathon start time will depend on the wave you’re in, so you need to be on top of your schedule for Sunday

www.coachweb.com

I understand your theory (I've read most of the thread!) but it won' work IMHO at any golf club I've been associated with no matter how well meaning. If it was self policing and going to work then we would be seeing the results already as members would adapt and find tee times that suit their priorities. This doesn't happen, members play at a time that suits their lifestyle, hence the conflict.

Someone did a traffic analogy earlier in the thread that was a bit iffy but i'm gonna roll with it. If i travel to work at rush hour I expect delays, unpredictability and general frustration at lack of progress. If I go off peak I can predict quite accurately my journey time - similar principle with choosing a tee time

 

[bobmac]

Maybe if clubs advertised the system then people would make use of it.
As for playing when it suits you...it's only once a month, slow players only have to avoid the first 3 or 4 tee times at the most to let the sprinters go.

it won't work IMHO at any golf club I've been associated with

How many of these clubs have tried the idea?

 

[Griffsters]

To a fashion it exists at my current club - we have members who regularly book in the first two or three slots specifically as they are fast players. I think it works for them as they are generally 'up with the larks...' sort of folk so all is good.

Conversely I know another fourball that regularly play together and for whatever personal reason (skinful Friday probably!) they want to play towards noon time on a Saturday - their expectation is for a 3hr 30min round. IMHO this is not realistic, yet they still feel others should speed up and its their perception there is a 'slow play' problem. There isn't, just a slowing down at peak periods.

There is the conflict - group two know its quicker to get round earlier (i've had the conversation) but still choose tee times when the course will be full. Then complain that there are slow downs - its as per my rush hour traffic analogy.

I do think there is merit for education and managing expectation around the correlation of tee time and round duration But even so, it won't solve the issue IMHO.

 

[bobmac]

I do think there is merit for education and managing expectation around the correlation of tee time and round duration But even so, it won't solve the issue IMHO.

So what would work?
People keep saying my idea would never work, even though it's never been tried but don't come up with any alternatives that haven't been tried already.
If you don't try something and you believe Backsticks, the 4 hour round will soon be a thing of the past.

I remember vividly when any round over 4 hours was horrendous. Now people see 4 hours+ as normal.

If the fourball at your place want to go round in 3.30mins, encourage them to play early and have their skinfull on Saturday night instead. In fact they could start drinking at lunchtime as they would be finished by 12.00

Or, how about having 10% or 20% off all drinks in the bar before 1pm

 

[PaulMdj]

If only there was an outright solution where faster players didn't get held up behind average/slower players.

Is it right that marathon races have the fastest athletes at the front of the field, followed by the club runners with the slowest towards the rear?


''the men’s elite race sets off just before the mass start at 9.40am. Then the fast runners go off at around 9.40am, with waves of runners then departing up until the last runners between 11-11.30am.''

London Marathon Start Time: When Does The 2024 Race Begin?

Your exact London Marathon start time will depend on the wave you’re in, so you need to be on top of your schedule for Sunday

www.coachweb.com

Seriously!! That’s the example we should follow? An event with 50,000 runners with a field that has everything from the Worlds best and some bloke carrying a fridge!


Not sure if you’ve ran the London Marathon, but on your entry form you put a predicted race time down for yourself and guess what happens? People lie!

Maybe Golf Clubs should follow the Pro Tour and give everyone a Caddy or the Pro Tour should invite Club members to play in their events!! That’ll speed them up.

 

[Hobbit]

Bear with me, just typing as I’m thinking, i.e. not a fully formed thought. If group 1 looks for a ball on hole 6 and 12 you’re going to see a potential 6min slippage for group 2 and all the groups behind them. But if group 2 look for a ball on hole 7 & 13, that 6 min slippage becomes 12 mins for all the groups behind. Not every group is going to look for a ball, and some groups might only look for one ball, or maybe three.

There’s going to be a ‘natural’ slippage right through the field, some of which might be clawed back through good housekeeping but the reality is the time to go round will increase as more people are looking for balls. Add in the odd, genuinely slower player and you’ve got what people experience every week. It isn’t going to change that much. Fairly pointless getting all hot under the collar about what is, in the main, a naturally occurring phenomena.

Edit; as for the good old days, I can remember 4.5hr rounds 40 years ago. They did happen back then too, although the advent of pro-inspired pre-shot routines, times have moved out but not by much.

 

[bobmac]

Seriously!! That’s the example we should follow? An event with 50,000 runners with a field that has everything from the Worlds best and some bloke carrying a fridge!


Not sure if you’ve ran the London Marathon, but on your entry form you put a predicted race time down for yourself and guess what happens? People lie!

Maybe Golf Clubs should follow the Pro Tour and give everyone a Caddy or the Pro Tour should invite Club members to play in their events!! That’ll speed them up.

Yes seriously
Fast runners out first.

Nice to see the excessive use of the !!!!!!
Reminds me of someone

 

[PaulMdj]

Yes seriously
Fast runners out first.

Nice to see the excessive use of the !!!!!!
Reminds me of someone

It’s not fast runners out first! It’s the Worlds Elite, there maybe 30 of them on start line at the very front with pace makers that will drop out.

What if Clubs had 3 balls and a pacemaker with each flight? That might work.

The !! are only used excessively when someone is not being serious imo.

 

[bobmac]

It’s not fast runners out first! It’s the Worlds Elite

 

[YandaB]

Bear with me, just typing as I’m thinking, i.e. not a fully formed thought. If group 1 looks for a ball on hole 6 and 12 you’re going to see a potential 6min slippage for group 2 and all the groups behind them. But if group 2 look for a ball on hole 7 & 13, that 6 min slippage becomes 12 mins for all the groups behind. Not every group is going to look for a ball, and some groups might only look for one ball, or maybe three.

There’s going to be a ‘natural’ slippage right through the field, some of which might be clawed back through good housekeeping but the reality is the time to go round will increase as more people are looking for balls. Add in the odd, genuinely slower player and you’ve got what people experience every week. It isn’t going to change that much. Fairly pointless getting all hot under the collar about what is, in the main, a naturally occurring phenomena.

Edit; as for the good old days, I can remember 4.5hr rounds 40 years ago. They did happen back then too, although the advent of pro-inspired pre-shot routines, times have moved out but not by much.

I believe that one way to manage that natural slippage is to build in contingency by spreading the start intervals. Someone has already mentioned the R&A pace of play manual, it really is worth a look. There are 3 factors that it identifies as impacting pace of play:

Tee time intervals: "Providing insufficient time between groups teeing off, leading to overcrowding of the course and waiting, is a common management practice that can mean that rounds are doomed to take longer than most players would like."

Course Set-up: "Courses are often set up or designed to be too difficult for the majority of golfers that play them. A lack of teeing options to cater for the differences in player hitting distances, rough near to the fairway in which balls can frequently be lost or excessive green speeds or green firmness are just some examples of course features than can cause excessive delays and round times."

And tellingly, people: "Individual players can, of course, have a negative effect on pace of play, but that effect may be relatively insignificant when compared to the impact that poor management practices and ill-considered course set up can have."

Our course refuses to consider longer gaps between tee times "need to give everyone an opportunity to play". Over the years the course has set-up has been getting easier and easier, though this year there are signs of that being reversed.

As a lad, I occasionally went with the old man to walk round the course with him. I distinctly remember that there were strict times that 2/3 balls and 4 balls could start at on both the 1st and 10th. Does anyone still have that and does it help in any way? Certainly at my place, when it is rammed the 2 balls seem to accept that they will be playing 4 ball pace.

 

[Griffsters]

Bear with me, just typing as I’m thinking, i.e. not a fully formed thought. If group 1 looks for a ball on hole 6 and 12 you’re going to see a potential 6min slippage for group 2 and all the groups behind them. But if group 2 look for a ball on hole 7 & 13, that 6 min slippage becomes 12 mins for all the groups behind. Not every group is going to look for a ball, and some groups might only look for one ball, or maybe three.

There’s going to be a ‘natural’ slippage right through the field, some of which might be clawed back through good housekeeping but the reality is the time to go round will increase as more people are looking for balls. Add in the odd, genuinely slower player and you’ve got what people experience every week. It isn’t going to change that much. Fairly pointless getting all hot under the collar about what is, in the main, a naturally occurring phenomena.

Edit; as for the good old days, I can remember 4.5hr rounds 40 years ago. They did happen back then too, although the advent of pro-inspired pre-shot routines, times have moved out but not by much.

Yep.

With this in mind would it be worth trialling 'breakers' in the tee schedule to reset so to speak

 

[Hobbit]

I believe that one way to manage that natural slippage is to build in contingency by spreading the start intervals. Someone has already mentioned the R&A pace of play manual, it really is worth a look. There are 3 factors that it identifies as impacting pace of play:

Tee time intervals: "Providing insufficient time between groups teeing off, leading to overcrowding of the course and waiting, is a common management practice that can mean that rounds are doomed to take longer than most players would like."

Course Set-up: "Courses are often set up or designed to be too difficult for the majority of golfers that play them. A lack of teeing options to cater for the differences in player hitting distances, rough near to the fairway in which balls can frequently be lost or excessive green speeds or green firmness are just some examples of course features than can cause excessive delays and round times."

And tellingly, people: "Individual players can, of course, have a negative effect on pace of play, but that effect may be relatively insignificant when compared to the impact that poor management practices and ill-considered course set up can have."

Our course refuses to consider longer gaps between tee times "need to give everyone an opportunity to play". Over the years the course has set-up has been getting easier and easier, though this year there are signs of that being reversed.

As a lad, I occasionally went with the old man to walk round the course with him. I distinctly remember that there were strict times that 2/3 balls and 4 balls could start at on both the 1st and 10th. Does anyone still have that and does it help in any way? Certainly at my place, when it is rammed the 2 balls seem to accept that they will be playing 4 ball pace.

One of the clubs I’ve been a member of had 10 minute intervals. I dare say there was the odd waiting on a tee but it was exceptionally rare.

 

[Imurg]

During Covid, when we had to book, we had 10 minutes gaps between tee times...effectively this meant waiting until the group in front had cleared then1st or the 10th holes.
In the 5 months or so that we had booking we barely had any hold ups at all
Once the roll up culture resumed and, on the first tee, people playing shots as soon as the group in front were out of range....low and behold but the time they got to then3rd hole ( blind tee shot/wait for the bell) there were often 2 groups waiting on the tee.....
The Human race has no patience unless they're forced to have patience.

 

[Griffsters]

Right that's slow play sorted, what next?

 

[PaulMdj]

Remember bob, you don’t get any shots back for being fastest in the Monthly Medal!

At times it’s really easy to see just how out of touch you are with Golf Clubs.

 

[Imurg]

Right that's slow play sorted, what next?

Socks and shorts - did you see Yannick Paul over the weekend..?

 

[Griffsters]

Socks and shorts - did you see Yannick Paul over the weekend..?

Yes, perfect stylish attire



.........

 

[Pants]

During Covid, when we had to book, we had 10 minutes gaps between tee times...effectively this meant waiting until the group in front had cleared then1st or the 10th holes.
In the 5 months or so that we had booking we barely had any hold ups at all

In a nutshell

 

[rulie]

During Covid, when we had to book, we had 10 minutes gaps between tee times...effectively this meant waiting until the group in front had cleared then1st or the 10th holes.
In the 5 months or so that we had booking we barely had any hold ups at all
Once the roll up culture resumed and, on the first tee, people playing shots as soon as the group in front were out of range....low and behold but the time they got to then3rd hole ( blind tee shot/wait for the bell) there were often 2 groups waiting on the tee.....
The Human race has no patience unless they're forced to have patience.

From a National Golf Course Owners Association (US) document, maybe 2008? Increasing the starting time interval does reduce the round time, without significant impact on the number of groups completing play. It also greatly improves customer satisfaction!

 

[bobmac]

From a National Golf Course Owners Association (US) document, maybe 2008? Increasing the starting time interval does reduce the round time, without significant impact on the number of groups completing play. It also greatly improves customer satisfaction!
View attachment 52636

If you have 7 minute intervals, that's about 9 groups per hour.
If you have 10 minute intervals, that's about 6 groups per hour.
3 groups less per hour from 7am till 6pm is a significant drop in the number of competitors.
So about 100 golfers won't get a tee time.
What have I missed?