slope and how its worked out and comp to SSS

[patricks148]

i was under the impression slope was a guide to course difficulty.

my home course is par 71 SSS 74 with a slope of 137

Fish posted his course the other day which is shorter, par 73, SSS 72 and yet the slope is 139

am i missing something ?

 

[NWJocko]

Slope is only providing the relative difficulty of a course between a scratch golfer and a bogey golfer.

Course Rating is equivalent to SSS so a scratch golfer is expected to score 74 (or +3 to par) at Nairn and 72 (or -1 to par) at the other course.

I don't know the criteria but the difficulty of the course for a scratch and bogey golfer is ascertained which gives you the slope. I'm no expert on what these criteria are, could be that the other course has water about/carries off tees that a bogey golfer would find more difficult than at Nairn etc (that's only an example off the top of my head, sure they will be documented somewhere).

 

[rulefan]

As said Slope is simply an indication of the relative difficulty of a particular course (ie set of tees) for a bogey player (20 ish handicap) as opposed to a scratch player.

When a course (ie set of tees) is rated, two sets of measurements and positions of obstacles are taken into account.
The first are for a 'model' scratch player, which after calculations produces the Course Rating (almost equivalent to SSS). The second for a 'model' bogey player. The Bogey Rating.
Neither figure is related to par but simply indicates how many strokes that type of player is expected to take from those tees.
A theoretical line is drawn on a graph between the two ratings and this is the Slope.
A player will have a 'base' handicap index (derived from the average of the best 8 of the last 20 rounds) and will convert that to his Course Handicap by using the slope.

The first course is more difficult than the second for a scratch player. CR of 74 v CR of 72

The second course is 'relatively' slightly more difficult for a higher capper vs a scratch player (Slope 139) player than the first (Slope 137)

NB Par is irrelevant in this context

 

[Imurg]

Can I say that it's a good job that we dont really need to understand all the intricacies of the system as it will all be done, effectively, for us as it bursts my brain every time I try and get my head around it......

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

My understanding of how slope works...

So taking the bogey player scoring to an extreme. Imagine a course of all 'par' fours - each of a length that requires the bogey player to hit a good drive to be able to reach in two. However, consider that there was water to clear on every hole and clearing that water was very difficult for the bogey golfer (but of no concern whatsoever for the scratch player). The bogey player's score will be significantly impacted by the water - the scratch players won't. It is quite possible that the bogey player will lay up on all holes - and on many holes won't have any chance of reaching in two - and so 5 will become his 'target' score on most holes.

Imagine our bogey player playing off 18. Now on my hypothetical course 18 over is going to be about as good as he can possibly score. But he won't - he'll most likely score considerably more than 18 over. So on this hypothetical course our bogey player won't be looking to play round in 18 over - he'd be expected to play his normal game to a score a good bit over 18 shots dropped - simply because of the level of hazard presented to him on every hole.

And it is that level of 'hazard' that will determine the assessed likely score for the bogey player, and hence the 'slope' for the course when differenced with the scratch player's probable 72 and factored up to give slope - and that slope will tell all players what their target score for that course should be - and his handicap for that course.

Well that's how I see it.

 

[Imurg]

 

[rosecott]

Can I say that it's a good job that we dont really need to understand all the intricacies of the system as it will all be done, effectively, for us as it bursts my brain every time I try and get my head around it......

You shouldn't have been condemning CSS all these years - you've got waht you deserve..

 

[rulefan]

Course Rating (SSS) tells scratch golfers how difficult the course will be for them. Bogey Rating tells bogey golfers how difficult the course will be for them.
Slope is simply a graphical way of telling all non-scratch golfers how much more or less difficult it will be for them relative to a scratch golfer

To put it another way: USGA Course Rating tells the best golfers how hard a golf course actually plays; USGA Slope Rating indicates how much harder the course plays for "regular" (meaning not among the best) golfers.

Of course a plus handicapper will have a negative slope adjustment as he will find it easier than a scratch golfer

 

[Imurg]

You shouldn't have been condemning CSS all these years - you've got waht you deserve..

Won't we still have an arbitrary adjustment based on what people score..?
CSS by another name?

 

[rulefan]

Without their reading the the manual and checking the tables, I wonder how many golfers actually know how CSS is determined

 

[rosecott]

Won't we still have an arbitrary adjustment based on what people score..?
CSS by another name?

Well - at least you will have something new to moan about.

 

[Imurg]

Well - at least you will have something new to moan about.

Another year older, another year grumpier - that's me

 

[duncan mackie]

i was under the impression slope was a guide to course difficulty.

my home course is par 71 SSS 74 with a slope of 137

Fish posted his course the other day which is shorter, par 73, SSS 72 and yet the slope is 139

am i missing something ?

Difficulty overall (usually heavily length based) - SSS
Difficulty to score Par - SSS/Par
Difficulty for a higher handicap golfer relative to a scratch golfer - slope

 

[patricks148]

As said Slope is simply an indication of the relative difficulty of a particular course (ie set of tees) for a bogey player (20 ish handicap) as opposed to a scratch player.

When a course (ie set of tees) is rated, two sets of measurements and positions of obstacles are taken into account.
The first are for a 'model' scratch player, which after calculations produces the Course Rating (almost equivalent to SSS). The second for a 'model' bogey player. The Bogey Rating.
Neither figure is related to par but simply indicates how many strokes that type of player is expected to take from those tees.
A theoretical line is drawn on a graph between the two ratings and this is the Slope.
A player will have a 'base' handicap index (derived from the average of the best 8 of the last 20 rounds) and will convert that to his Course Handicap by using the slope.

The first course is more difficult than the second for a scratch player. CR of 74 v CR of 72

The second course is 'relatively' slightly more difficult for a higher capper vs a scratch player (Slope 139) player than the first (Slope 137)

NB Par is irrelevant in this context

how would fishes course Coventry have a higher slope 139 when Nairn is longer the sss is higher?

 

[Crow]

how would fishes course Coventry have a higher slope 139 when Nairn is longer the sss is higher?

A parkland course can punish a bad shot more than a links course.

• Parkland perils - Water, woods, bunkers, rough, I'd also guess more opportunities to go OB
• Links perils- Bunkers, rough

High handicap golfers will find the perils more than the scratch golfer, hence higher slope.

 

[NWJocko]

how would fishes course Coventry have a higher slope 139 when Nairn is longer the sss is higher?

The simple answer is that, as a result of the assessment (again I don't know what factors they consider) it is considered that Coventry is more difficult for a bogey golfer relative to a scratch golfer from a given set of tees. Remember the slope start point (for a scratch golfer) is from the lower/easier Course Rating (SSS equivalent).

Could be a number of reasons, only played Coventry the once seem to remember it was very tree lined so maybe higher handicappers might struggle more off the tee? (Note this is only a guess, I'm sure you can find the assessment criteria online).

Edit: below is a (simplified I'm guessing first Google Result that popped up) link to the sort of things considered

https://www.cumbria-golf-union.org.uk/course_assessment

My place is similar to Nairn, Par 72, SSS 75 and Slope 138

Makes sense to me off the tee (I'm not a scratch golfer remember) but I hit it 240/250 carry off the tee which is where all of the trouble is at my course. A 18/20 odd handicapper who can only hit it 200 off the tee has fewer hazards to contend with. There's more to it than that but that's the general gist I take from it

 

[duncan mackie]

how would fishes course Coventry have a higher slope 139 when Nairn is longer the sss is higher?

Slope is the relationship between the SSS (effectively - CR in tech speak) and the bogey rating (SSS calculated against a lower set of capabilities, especially carry and distance off the tee).
You are , naturally, focussing on the absolute difficulty; but the slope will go up if the course is easy for a scratch player!
Typically such an extreme will come about from carries and tight dogleg

 

[patricks148]

A parkland course can punish a bad shot more than a links course.

• Parkland perils - Water, woods, bunkers, rough, I'd also guess more opportunities to go OB
• Links perils- Bunkers, rough

High handicap golfers will find the perils more than the scratch golfer, hence higher slope.

Slope is the relationship between the SSS (effectively - CR in tech speak) and the bogey rating (SSS calculated against a lower set of capabilities, especially carry and distance off the tee).
You are , naturally, focussing on the absolute difficulty; but the slope will go up if the course is easy for a scratch player!
Typically such an extreme will come about from carries and tight dogleg

The simple answer is that, as a result of the assessment (again I don't know what factors they consider) it is considered that Coventry is more difficult for a bogey golfer relative to a scratch golfer from a given set of tees. Remember the slope start point (for a scratch golfer) is from the lower/easier Course Rating (SSS equivalent).

Could be a number of reasons, only played Coventry the once seem to remember it was very tree lined so maybe higher handicappers might struggle more off the tee? (Note this is only a guess, I'm sure you can find the assessment criteria online).

I see, so even though say Nairns SSS is 3 shots higher that par yet Cov appears to be 1 shot under, Cov is still seen as harderr?

 

[NWJocko]

I see, so even though say Nairns SSS is 3 shots higher that par yet Cov appears to be 1 shot under, Cov is still seen as harderr?

No.

Nairn is "harder" in absolute terms as it has a higher Course Rating.

Coventry is considered rrelatively more difficult for a bogey golfer to a scratch golfer from a certain set of tees.

 

[patricks148]

No.

Nairn is "harder" in absolute terms as it has a higher Course Rating.

Coventry is considered rrelatively more difficult for a bogey golfer to a scratch golfer from a certain set of tees.

strange.... i would have thought that if a scratch player found it hard a bogey player would find it doubly hard.

one of the hardest courses ive played is Trump Aberdeen, off the blue which is 6600 that s slope is 140 and the course rating it high too, TBH its doesn't make much sense to me