Should we have two handicaps

[jim8flog]

I regularly play in both club Saturday medals and Monday seniors only medals. What is noticeable is that in roughly the same conditions the Seniors CSS when played from the whites goes up a shot and the club CSS goes down a shot. It got me to thinking should we have two handicaps with the second one for when the comp is older age related.

Eg my score in the Seniors got me a 0.8 cut but if it was the score on Saturday I would have only got a 0.4 cut.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I regularly play in both club Saturday medals and Monday seniors only medals. What is noticeable is that in roughly the same conditions the Seniors CSS when played from the whites goes up a shot and the club CSS goes down a shot. It got me to thinking should we have two handicaps with the second one for when the comp is older age related.

Eg my score in the Seniors got me a 0.8 cut but if it was the score on Saturday I would have only got a 0.4 cut.

Without being rude, maybe the seniors should play off the yellows, are the whites making the course too long for the majority of them?

 

[jim8flog]

The seniors have all their Stablefords off the yellows.

The better Seniors complained about too many comps off the yellows so they made all medals off the whites.

I for one would not like to have a handicap that is based upon the yellow tees, for the same reason I will not go in to comps on our 9 hole course.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The seniors have all their Stablefords off the yellows.

The better Seniors complained about too many comps off the yellows so they made all medals off the whites.

I for one would not like to have a handicap that is based upon the yellow tees, for the same reason I will not go in to comps on our 9 hole course.

Can't they find a happy medium? Again it seems your club is catering for the minority.

As for your own handicap (again without sounding rude) isn't at risk at being too low for Club comps if the seniors CSS is always higher and as you state, for the same score you get a bigger cut?

 

[jim8flog]

Can't they find a happy medium? Again it seems your club is catering for the minority.

As for your own handicap (again without sounding rude) isn't at risk at being too low for Club comps if the seniors CSS is always higher and as you state, for the same score you get a bigger cut?

I do understand you first comment. We offer 3 divisions in all comps with an average field of about 90 players both in club comps and in Seniors comps. The seniors get one comp every two weeks the club comps are about 3 a week.

Re second comment I think you have got that the wrong way round I need to shoot a much better gross score (about 4 over) to be in with a chance in club comps and about 6 over gross in seniors comps.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I do understand you first comment. We offer 3 divisions in all comps with an average field of about 90 players both in club comps and in Seniors comps. The seniors get one comp every two weeks the club comps are about 3 a week.

Re second comment I think you have got that the wrong way round I need to shoot a much better gross score (about 4 over) to be in with a chance in club comps and about 6 over gross in seniors comps.

Because of CSS in the seniors comp you're score was better for handicap (0.8 cut) therefore playing seniors you're handicap will come down quicker.

So lets pretend you're cat 2 off 10, in Club comp you'd be off 9.6 next week, but because of seniors CSS you'd be off 9.2 next week, therefore seniors is better for getting handicap down......or am I missing something.

 

[ScienceBoy]

No, two handicaps are not needed.

Competitions off different tees and players playing in the competition they deem appropriate.

Hard though as this may force weekday members to have to add weekend membership to play off the whites...

 

[IanM]

No, it would unnecessarily complicate stuff

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

I thought handicaps were based on the SSS/CSS and if your course is more difficult off the whites then surely the CSS reflects that?

So to answer your question, no only 1 handicap is required.

 

[jim8flog]

Because of CSS in the seniors comp you're score was better for handicap (0.8 cut) therefore playing seniors you're handicap will come down quicker.

So lets pretend you're cat 2 off 10, in Club comp you'd be off 9.6 next week, but because of seniors CSS you'd be off 9.2 next week, therefore seniors is better for getting handicap down......or am I missing something.

But that would then make me have an uncompetitive handicap for club medals. This is the whole point of my original post. The age of the group has more of an impact on the CSS than the course conditions.

 

[jim8flog]

No, two handicaps are not needed.

Competitions off different tees and players playing in the competition they deem appropriate.

Hard though as this may force weekday members to have to add weekend membership to play off the whites...

Both comps are off whites.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But that would then make me have an uncompetitive handicap for club medals. This is the whole point of my original post. The age of the group has more of an impact on the CSS than the course conditions.

I know, hence my original point of the few seniors wanting to play off the whites are making it difficult for the majority.

You seem to want to be competitive in both, hence your original question.

2 Handicaps? No,

Your club needs to review what Tees the seniors play off and your example would be good evidence for changing it, or at least only play the Seniors Majors off the whites.

Or change the Seniors to a society and have a society handicap and a proper one.

 

[duncan mackie]

The answer to your original question is that we all have more than one inherent handicap capability because we aren't machines, and at one level no two 18 handicap players have the same skill set; how they score on the courses they play, from the tees they are required to play etc simply combine to deliver their handicap.

Note - The US slope system won't change this reality at all. It tries to cover the huge gap between a scratch players basic capability and a 20 handicapper (but as above 20 handicappers aren't all the same...)

It's also true at most clubs that seniors playing from the forward tees will tend to play better relative to SSS than playing from those further back. This is to do with a general slide in distances, carries and apex heights with time and that (as recognised within CONGU) as a group they are generally behind the curve on handicap increases ie they are on the way up, but the system doesn't deliver increases fast enough for many who don't play a lot of golf (or play courses which don't have year round Q events).

If all the senior Q events were played of the white tees the problem would be reduced (because they would all be handicapped to white tee capabilities and many would quickly acquire higher handicaps) but you should also look at whether the group as a whole are being looked at appropriately in the AR.

With the exception of the aging bit, exactly the same issues are behind why some players perform better on some courses.

On a related subject we have captains day on the 24th, and the captain has decided to bring all the tees into play and players can choose which tees they wish to play from in the event...as we have 5 measured men's tees with SSS ranging from 74 to 67, it's an interesting question deciding which to play off - before actually getting out there on the day! For reasons common to many threads I suspect most will elect to play from the back...it will be interesting!

 

[patricks148]

not sure why you would need two handicaps... well not unless you where the Short Game Wizard:rofl::rofl:

 

[Foxholer]

Note - The US slope system won't change this reality at all. It tries to cover the huge gap between a scratch players basic capability and a 20 handicapper (but as above 20 handicappers aren't all the same...)

Unusually, I disagree with you!

The Slope system actually removes the distortion that Seniors (as opposed to 'Full Club' comps introduces! Of course, it also removes the CSS adjustment totally! Whether that's a good thing or not is a different debate!

But you are totally correct when you state that Seniors are generally sliding upwards and the Congu system will always be somewhat 'behind' such movement!

 

[duncan mackie]

Unusually, I disagree with you!

The Slope system actually removes the distortion that Seniors (as opposed to 'Full Club' comps introduces! Of course, it also removes the CSS adjustment totally! Whether that's a good thing or not is a different debate!

But you are totally correct when you state that Seniors are generally sliding upwards and the Congu system will always be somewhat 'behind' such movement!

We will have to agree to disagree.

The argument you have put forward here presumes that all seniors are around 20 handicap and that they all have that handicap based on the same underlying capabilities ie same carry abilities. My experiences suggest otherwise! Whilst there are some who clearly fit that model perfectly (generally those who achieved a single figure handicap earlier on, many reflect the wider populace where lost balls on one hole are matched with birdies on others almost regardless of length - Erin Hills excluded &#128526.

My final 'proof lies in the original post - he is equally comfortable of either of the tees and generally scores in a similar manner relative to SSS. If he is a bogey golfer all that slope will do is reverse the bias for him!

Both systems are based on the characteristics of a scr golfer being broadly similar as a whole (exceptions being statistically insignificant) but slope simply creates a new set of characteristics for the 20 handicapper to create the bogey index element. The crux of my argument is that this is equally flawed in the context of these discussions because there is no such thing as an average 20 handicapper (that's why they are 20!).

Our common ground is probably that there will be more consistency in underlying capabilities within senior section 20 handicappers than 20 handicappers as a whole.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

If the seniors find the course hard off the whites, they should play off the yellows.
If the CSS is always going down for normal comps, your SSS is wrong.

 

[Fish]

All our Coggs (senior) matches are played off the yellows which is a tough par 71 (sss 70) our whites are a par 73 (sss) 72.

 

[jim8flog]

If the seniors find the course hard off the whites, they should play off the yellows.
If the CSS is always going down for normal comps, your SSS is wrong.

I did not say the CSS is always going down. I said (roughly) "given the same conditions in two recent competitions"

When I first started playing seniors only two comps out of a possible 24 were off the yellows, we now have managed to get that increased to 6, two of which are the Seniors Championship.

We have quite a few single figure players (ones who actually play in the comps plus quite a few who do not ) and a division spilt of 1-15, 16-20 and 20-28 gives a roughly equal number of players in each division.

 

[Roops]

Never understood why we don't adopt the apparoach I saw in France. Tees used were based on handicap. So the lower you were the longer the hole. Seems emminently more sensible, and annoyed our lady opponents no end when they didn't get their normal 150 yd start.........