Shots given changing?

[rulie]

Colin, we don't play enough Stableford for me to be familiar, so I'm not going to try to figure out the Stableford points situation, but I think it should be (113/slope rating) x ....
And are the "points scored" based on net hole scores or gross hole scores?

 

[rulefan]

The draft CONGU Manual
Has the formula Colin mentions for Stroke Play (ie (113 / CR) x ....

But for Stableford format says:

= (113 / Slope) * (par + CH - (points scored -36) - CR - PCC)

 

[Colin L]

Colin, we don't play enough Stableford for me to be familiar, so I'm not going to try to figure out the Stableford points situation, but I think it should be (112/slope rating) x ....
And are the "points scored" based on net hole scores or gross hole scores?

a. It's definitely 113/slope rating - just checked the draft rules.
b. Net.

 

[rulie]

a. It's definitely 113/slope rating - just checked the draft rules.
b. Net.

And I had erroneously typed 112 instead of 113 (corrected above). (you had 113/course rating....) in post 41.

 

[Colin L]

I see now - and also corrected.

 

[bobmac]

Why on earth does it have to be so complicated?

 

[Swango1980]

Why on earth does it have to be so complicated?

My thoughts exactly. Personally, the only advantage to it that I see is that, your handicap can be directly applied wherever you play globally, and how many people does that effect? And of those it does effect, how tricky is it currently to adjust your handicap when playing in another country? I suppose another potential advantage is that, you won't have people being confused anymore, where they think a handicapped golfer at a hard course is better than a golfer of the same handicap at an easy course. Although that is just a perception issue, and my some of the comments on this and other threads, I think golfers having different handicaps at different courses might be just as confusing / annoying / puzzling for some. Especially if they end up having to play off a lower handicap at a course they personally find more difficult.

It also appears to be a bit more of a mathematical headache to work out, and probably harder to explain a handicap change to the regular golfer than it would be currently. I know that the computer systems already do most of the calculations at present, but it does seem the WHS will be even more heavily reliant on technology.

Hopefully I'm proved wrong, but it shall all become more clear by the end of 2020.

 

[Colin L]

It really is simple. You take your Handicap Index wherever you go and look up a chart to find out what your Course Handicap will be for the course you are going to play. If it's a competition, you might have to apply a Handicap Allowance for the format. For my club, I intend including the percentages on the Course Handicap chart so that players don't even have to work out their Playing Handicap. As now, record your gross scores for each hole if it's a stroke competition. As now, you won't have to add your scores up. As now, the only mental arithmetic needed will be to count the strokes you take at each hole.

It will be no more reliant on technology than our handicapping is now. It can't be, since our handicapping is wholly reliant on technology already.

Like the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy the handicapping rule book should come with Don't Panic on the cover in big friendly letters.

 

[Swango1980]

It really is simple. You take your Handicap Index wherever you go and look up a chart to find out what your Course Handicap will be for the course you are going to play. If it's a competition, you might have to apply a Handicap Allowance for the format. For my club, I intend including the percentages on the Course Handicap chart so that players don't even have to work out their Playing Handicap. As now, record your gross scores for each hole if it's a stroke competition. As now, you won't have to add your scores up. As now, the only mental arithmetic needed will be to count the strokes you take at each hole.

It will be no more reliant on technology than our handicapping is now. It can't be, since our handicapping is wholly reliant on technology already.

Like the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy the handicapping rule book should come with Don't Panic on the cover in big friendly letters.

In practice, sure. When all goes smoothly, players can just go about ignorantly entering their scores and let the software sort it out.

But, sometimes players ask the question "why has my handicap changed", or "how does the handicap process work". Currently, that is relatively easy to understand. The WHS system, to a certain extent, it is easy to explain (i.e. average of your best 8 in 20, handicap index versus playing handicap). However, you can forget about going into the finer detail with many players, course rating / bogey rating / Slope Rating, formula to convert one value to another, etc). Again, I know that most players DO NOT need to know this, but for those that are inquisitive you may just have to end up saying "don't worry about it, just trust it", and then if they are frustrated that they have lost shots at an easier course, and they think they shouldn't, it can lead to an unhappy golfer.

I still don't know what happens if an earlier score hasn't yet been put into the system, and you have a competition. That is certainly one occasion currently, where golfers have to take responsibility rather than rely on technology.

I'll admit, my concerns probably stem from the fact that I'm a big fan of the current system. I like how it lowers the handicap quickly, especially for high handicapper, when a player hits form (exceptional score reductions was another good addition). I like that handicap go up slowly to stop a good player in a run of bad form going up too quickly. I like the Continuous Review, which helps the handicap secretary to identify players who may need extra increases. I like SSS, and how that helps to provide fairness in handicap for golfers at hard / easy courses. I like CSS that takes into account conditions on the day. I like the fact it is relatively easy to explain to most golfers if asked, and to explain the impact of their latest score. I like the fact it is easy to work out a new handicap if the system hadn't been updated from a players last round.

So, yes, I may have blinkers on, afraid of change. And, all these things I like will still apply with WHS. But, given that I can't think of anything I personally DISLIKE about the current system, it is a worry that it is more likely that certain elements may change for the worse than change for the better.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I have recently come back to golfing after 10 years away. I don't know much about handicapping, and having read this lot I will certainly not worry about trying to at my age.
However, whilst I like the idea that I just put in the gross scores and all else is calculated by computer, it occurs to me that stableford competitions might become "interesting"
At the moment at my club, chaps go round entering points per hole and add them up at nine and eighteen hole completions. This is what they go on, not so much the gross for each hole( though of course those have to be , and are, entered as the hole is played, as are the points for each hole)
Am I right in thinking that with this new system, your points won't be definitely known until your gross score is entered for each hole on the computer and it does it's calculations?
Or haveI misunderstood the whole thread completely 😀

 

[Colin L]

No change to worry about. You will take your handicap strokes according to the Stroke Index and work out your points as before.

 

[bobmac]

Or haveI misunderstood the whole thread completely 😀

If you have you're not the only one.

The draft CONGU Manual
Has the formula Colin mentions for Stroke Play (ie (113 / CR) x ....

But for Stableford format says:

= (113 / Slope) * (par + CH - (points scored -36) - CR - PCC)

Stroke play.........full handicap
Match play.........3/4 handicap
Easy

 

[Swinglowandslow]

No change to worry about. You will take your handicap strokes according to the Stroke Index and work out your points as before.

Yes but will I know my handicap strokes? As Bobmac says, at the moment
it is full handicap for stroke play etc.
If it is changing, how do you calculate as you go to play the competition
If it isn't changing, what is all that about that I read in this thread?😀

 

[Colin L]

Yes you will know your handicap strokes. You will know your Handicap Index and will look up a chart for the course you are playing which will tell you your Course Handicap i.e how many strokes you get for that course with that Handicap Index. If you then have to apply a Handicap Allowance for stroke play or four ball or whatever, that's no different a process than what you have to do now. I plan to have the necessary charts on display in the clubhouse and on our website and expect other clubs will be the same.

The two important new things that players need to know are
1) you will no longer have a handicap which gives you the same number of strokes for whatever course you play, but instead a Handicap Index i.e the number you take to each course you play and adjust according to the relative difficulty of the course (slope rating).;
2) your Handicap Index is based on the the average of the best 8 Score Differentials out of your last 20 scores.

I think the use of slope rating to give you strokes according to the relative difficulty of a course will be an improvement. A man with a Handicap Index of 17.8 would get 19 strokes playing from the yellow tees at my club and 23 strokes playing from the yellows at Carnoustie which is one of the most difficult courses we have.

What you are reading in this thread are the technical details of various calculations, none of which the player will need to know about in order to manage their handicap for playing golf any more than he or she does now.

 

[Swango1980]

Yes you will know your handicap strokes. You will know your Handicap Index and will look up a chart for the course you are playing which will tell you your Course Handicap i.e how many strokes you get for that course with that Handicap Index. If you then have to apply a Handicap Allowance for stroke play or four ball or whatever, that's no different a process than what you have to do now. I plan to have the necessary charts on display in the clubhouse and on our website and expect other clubs will be the same.



I think the use of slope rating to give you strokes according to the relative difficulty of a course will be an improvement. A man with a Handicap Index of 17.8 would get 19 strokes playing from the yellow tees at my club and 23 strokes playing from the yellows at Carnoustie which is one of the most difficult courses we have.

What you are reading in this thread are the technical details of various calculations, none of which the player will need to know about in order to manage their handicap for playing golf any more than he or she does now.

Is that an improvement? After all, the only difference between that and now is, NOW the effective par used for handicap (SSS) changes, in the future it is the playing handicap that changes. But, assuming that the relative change in handicap with WHS is broadly similar to the relative change in SSS, then I can't see any improvement at all. It would effectively be the same outcome. Only, the perception may improve for some who do not understand how course difficulty is currently taken into account.

 

[Leftie]

My head hurts ....................

And I'm not even going to think about the CSS

 

[rulie]

Given that we have one set of Rules of golf around the world, and one set of Rules of Amateur Status around the world, doesn't it make sense that we have one set of handicapping rules around the world? It certainly does to me.

However, I always recall a couple of things:
- there will be resistance to any change, some people will think it is good, others will think it is bad (recall the new Rules of golf at the beginning of 2019)
- a camel is a horse designed by a committee

 

[Swango1980]

Given that we have one set of Rules of golf around the world, and one set of Rules of Amateur Status around the world, doesn't it make sense that we have one set of handicapping rules around the world? It certainly does to me.

However, I always recall a couple of things:
- there will be resistance to any change, some people will think it is good, others will think it is bad (recall the new Rules of golf at the beginning of 2019)
- a camel is a horse designed by a committee

Yeah, I agree with that, I just wish the entire world adopted the CONGU system

 

[rulie]

From the USGA site:

 

[berniethebolt]

How to make a simple system complicated! I thought I was beginning to understand but this 'explanation' from USGA puts me back to square one!