ger147
Tour Winner
Not sure if I have enough DVD's to last till the end of Sept 2014 :mmm:
Scottish independence
- Thread starter gryffindor
- Start date
Wow!
Thanks to this thread, and the questions it raises I've just read the detail for the Barnett Formula...
Scotland receives approx. £1,500 per head more than England. And bearing in mind, free prescriptions, free uni tuition etc you can understand why some English get a little anti... However, saying spending is based on need really doesn't justify the free 'bits' that conversely the ordinary (English) man in the street has to pay for. Also, when you dig down into the per head spending you find that England's figure also includes uni tuition fees, which in reality isn't public spending, but they're a loan to individuals that are paid back - the difference in the amount spent per head in England is actually greater. And certainly parts of the northeast and northwest of England could do with some decent spending.
Scotland's GDP per head is marginally lower than England's BUT that doesn't include oil & gas revenue. Include oil & gas and the GDP per head is almost £5k higher than England's - sounds like sound economic sense for Scotland to breakaway. But there's another "however." You'd then have to deduct the City of London's financial sector contribution, which even in the current economic climate is actually not far behind the oil & gas revenue - gob smacked me how much the C o L contribution is.
So, in truth, the financial arguments almost negate each other.
But surely desire for independence and self determination shouldn't be about money. It should be at a more base level...
Thanks to this thread, and the questions it raises I've just read the detail for the Barnett Formula...
Scotland receives approx. £1,500 per head more than England. And bearing in mind, free prescriptions, free uni tuition etc you can understand why some English get a little anti... However, saying spending is based on need really doesn't justify the free 'bits' that conversely the ordinary (English) man in the street has to pay for. Also, when you dig down into the per head spending you find that England's figure also includes uni tuition fees, which in reality isn't public spending, but they're a loan to individuals that are paid back - the difference in the amount spent per head in England is actually greater. And certainly parts of the northeast and northwest of England could do with some decent spending.
Scotland's GDP per head is marginally lower than England's BUT that doesn't include oil & gas revenue. Include oil & gas and the GDP per head is almost £5k higher than England's - sounds like sound economic sense for Scotland to breakaway. But there's another "however." You'd then have to deduct the City of London's financial sector contribution, which even in the current economic climate is actually not far behind the oil & gas revenue - gob smacked me how much the C o L contribution is.
So, in truth, the financial arguments almost negate each other.
But surely desire for independence and self determination shouldn't be about money. It should be at a more base level...
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
Well it must be a done deal now that Scotland could have it's own team for the next Olympics. That's got to get the 74% who don't want it at the moment voting for independence now.
Politicians really do need a reality check at times, it's as bad as letting 16-18 year olds vote just to try their hardest to force through a vote they know they won't win.
Show me one poll that confirms this please.Not only is it totally inaccurate, it perpetuates the myth the Conservatives and NEW Labour want.It's completely wrong.The No vote is winning right now and all the work has to be done by the yes campaign, but the same numbers were appearing about a year before the last national election in Scotland, look what happened there.There is also a suggestions that the undecideds are growing, and at the expense of the no vote, whilst the yes vote is pretty solid.
so if we're going to start throwing %'s about, please make sure they're backed up with actual factual data.
http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchp...-in-Scottish-referendum-voting-intention.aspx
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
I find the Barnett formula strange.A block grant based % wise on what England/Wales spends on public services.So Scotland's grant is decided by how much whatever govt decides to spend on health etc...so the current privatisation of the NHS in England directly affects the amount of money Holyrood gets to spend on NHS Scotland.There are clear differences in direction with both, but we're going to be unable to continue to offer the services we want to because Cameron/Clegg are selling off bits of the NHS down south.
I agree with you it's not about money, but more about self determination, a voice on an international stage, the right to choose where to monger war and whether we want weapons of mass destruction.
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
This will get nods of approval from many on here...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...st-fortune-says-provocative-SIMON-HEFFER.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...st-fortune-says-provocative-SIMON-HEFFER.html
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
Yes indeedee......The Daily Mail, says it all.
Adi I was quoting about the Scotsman poll which interviewed 10,000 citizens.
For vote was 26%
Which means 74 % are either undecided or No's
40% said that they would vote SNP at the next Holyrood election.
The SNP independence vote has stood pretty consistently at around 33% for the past 60 years.
You would have expected it to rise towards 2014 but it appears to be falling.
Agree that polls are not a great means of judgment but that was a big one 10,000 folk.
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
aye, but you cannae lump undecideds in with the no's man, that's just not cricket!
The SNP are a funny lot...I know a couple of SNP'ers who will vote No next year!
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Hobbit - you get it - both sides.
1) About English feeling on the status quo, as epitomised by the Barnett formula funding, when there is a NO and the union is safe - for ever?
2) That the debate and referendum shouldn't really be around arguments about the mostly short term financial impact on the individual and the family. That is general election stuff. This referendum is about a much greater thing - the future status of a country (and at least on that @Adi2Dassler and I are in complete agreement
) And yet for me to raise such is deemed by some and the BT/NO campaign - actually more so the opponents of YES - as emotional and tartan-covered clap-trap. But seeing it as 'a bigger thing' is why I argued that I as a non-dom but passionate Scot (again emotional clap-trap) should be able to cast a vote. A vote that would be counted in some way (maybe not on an equal basis as those cast in Scotland) and why I am disappointed that I don't get a vote on the grounds that I'm not (financially) affected - in the short term - or at least as long as I don't live in Scotland.So to go back to your discovery on Barnett formula funding - I am sure that you will be more than happy for a NO vote to result in the status quo and Scotland having the 'best of both worlds'
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SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Just clicked on the link LOL
And if they DON'T - will Mr Heffer just zip-it - I doubt it.
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
Agrree, I was using lazy ignorant responses to the lazy ignorant posts on here from some of our neighbours who think everyone in Scotland want's independence. Sorry.
And quite a few Labour and Tory MSP will vote for independence.
Last nights debate was farcical at times. Goldie [former Scots Tory leader] was talking as if it was a given that the SNP will rule for the next 20 years. A labour/tory/liberal/green alliance could well be our next government
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
Hobbit - you get it - both sides.
1) About English feeling on the status quo, as epitomised by the Barnett formula funding, when there is a NO and the union is safe - for ever?
2) That the debate and referendum shouldn't really be around arguments about the mostly short term financial impact on the individual and the family. That is general election stuff. This referendum is about a much greater thing - the future status of a country (and at least on that @Adi2Dassler and I are in complete agreement
So to go back to your discovery on Barnett formula funding - I am sure that you will be more than happy for a NO vote to result in the status quo and Scotland having the 'best of both worlds'
I'll be happy with a NO vote, but it has nothing to do with money. I was born in England, and proud to be so. But I'm British and see the Union as an equal partnership of all the countries in the Union. I feel we are better for that Union, both as an inward looking, single entity and in our standing in Europe.
On the one hand I'd like vote in this because it is the potential break up of our partnership, but that's like the husband who doesn't want his wife to leave. At the end of the day if someone wants to walk away, good luck.
As for Westminster doing x,y,z to the Scottish people. They are doing the exact same thing to ALL the people in the UK.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
All true but as to this, the bottom line is that the Scottish electorate has a 'once in many lifetimes' opportunity to change things if it wants. If it doesn't, then any subsequent moaning about Westminster, London and the SE England might fall on rather deaf ears.
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
I find it very patronising that BT, in effect Labour Tories and the Lib Dems, all seem to hint at some form of Devo Max for a No vote.
It is a bit like you old Aunt saying 'you behave yourself and you might get a bar of chocolate'.
It is a bit like you old Aunt saying 'you behave yourself and you might get a bar of chocolate'.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
They are hinting but not coming up with anything concrete at all at the moment - though Cameron has indicated that the government will put something forward before the referndum - how very decent of them. I would suggest that anyone voting NO in expectation of a move towards devo max may be disappointed. BTW - if the Westminster government changes at the next general election I suspect that new government could ignore or cancel any 'promises' made by the previous government in respect of devo max. Apart from anything else the next GE is in and so not very long at all after the referendum for anything substantive to have been put in place in respect of change in teh event of a NO.
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
They said the same in the 70's, then lumbered Scotland with Thatcher....not the most popular person up here.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
...and so I wish BT would be clearer about what would happen - or NOT happen - after a NO vote. In 5months time we have the European elections - and if UKIP do well I wait with interest to see what BT tell you all about risk asociated with UK position in Europe. And then if UKIP in a few years time 'replace' Lib Dems as UK 3rd party and take their position in a future coalition government with the Tories. Hmmm - not feeling a huge amount of synergy between Tory/UKIP coalition and Scots
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
Am I right to assume that UKIP are basically an English National Party.
Like the Tories they only have support in England.
If Labour and the Lib/Dems lose ground to UKIP/Tories in England I would see that as a total disaster for Scotland.
The Tories have around 14 MP's outside of England and UKIP have no support outside England.
This leaves the rest of the UK outside of England lumbered with a right wing alliance no matter how they vote.
Like the Tories they only have support in England.
If Labour and the Lib/Dems lose ground to UKIP/Tories in England I would see that as a total disaster for Scotland.
The Tories have around 14 MP's outside of England and UKIP have no support outside England.
This leaves the rest of the UK outside of England lumbered with a right wing alliance no matter how they vote.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I couldn't possibly comment on this - just an observation from an interested bystander. I think there may be some UKIP presence in Scotland - Nigel Farange was heckled and harrassed when on a visit a few months back to Edinburgh to assess UKIP strength north of the border.
I do hope the Scots electorate are thinking beyond their purses and wallets, and actually also how the UK political situation itself may change over the coming years given that they will have little or no say in the nature of that change. I wonder how many of those Farange hecklers will vote NO.
I'll note that this sort of stuff is the equivalent of the BTs 'fear' campain around a YES vote - but somehow expressing concern about what the impact of a Tory/UKIP coalition government could have on Scotland is dismissed as 'scaremongering', 'exaggeration' and 'itsnevergoingtohappenery' - never going to happen? Well not my risk to take. Were that coalition to come about following the next UK/rUK General Election in 2015 - well Scotland would have decided whether that mattered to them or not - anyone got a crystal ball?
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FairwayDodger
Money List Winner
It is just more scaremongering though.
This vote is about our identity as a nation - in the UK, or not. Far more important, IMO, than short term economics or concerns about what the next UK government may or may not do.
Post a "No" vote, as a Scot I will have as much say in the makeup of the next UK government as any other individual in England. If my view doesn't hold sway and a different government is elected, it's just democracy.
What happens post a "Yes" vote if part of Scotland disagrees with the majority view? A free state of Leith? Where does it end? Lets come together instead of pushing apart!
This vote is about our identity as a nation - in the UK, or not. Far more important, IMO, than short term economics or concerns about what the next UK government may or may not do.
Post a "No" vote, as a Scot I will have as much say in the makeup of the next UK government as any other individual in England. If my view doesn't hold sway and a different government is elected, it's just democracy.
What happens post a "Yes" vote if part of Scotland disagrees with the majority view? A free state of Leith? Where does it end? Lets come together instead of pushing apart!
