Scotland Debate

[SocketRocket]

Incorrect, as I've already shown on this very thread.There is information available, be in possession of the facts before making any spurious claims.

Thats a novel concept!

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Your making me sound like a YES voter.

:rofl::clap:

Easily pleased then?

I've never made any claims I can't back up, the same can't be said for the unionists on this thread, which I've picked up on and have been met with silence in return.I'm prepared to debate this, but only if you come armed with facts and not nonsense, or you can continue to make sleekit sarcastic replies, they'll only benefit the yes vote with undecideds

 

[Doon frae Troon]

What do the Scots bring to the table....
The odd delivery driver who one has to then phone up the company and have a translator

Great response to the 'can you speak a little slower' comment to the broad Weegie accent on the radio this morning.

'No pal, you need to think a bit faster'

 

[Foxholer]

Great response to the 'can you speak a little slower' comment to the broad Weegie accent on the radio this morning.

'No pal, you need to think a bit faster'

:rofl: :clap:

Easily pleased then?

Easily amused - as above! Significant difference.

I've never made any claims I can't back up, the same can't be said for the unionists on this thread, which I've picked up on and have been met with silence in return.I'm prepared to debate this, but only if you come armed with facts and not nonsense, or you can continue to make sleekit sarcastic replies, they'll only benefit the yes vote with undecideds

That comment is so self contradictory it doesn't warrant more than a 'Pah!' reply. There's nonsense being uttered by both sides - on this very page (to my 40 post/page view).

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Easily pleased then?

I've never made any claims I can't back up, the same can't be said for the unionists on this thread, which I've picked up on and have been met with silence in return.I'm prepared to debate this, but only if you come armed with facts and not nonsense, or you can continue to make sleekit sarcastic replies, they'll only benefit the yes vote with undecideds

How do you square the above comment with your dismissal, last week, of George Soros as "talking a lot of guff"?

 

[Val]

Easily pleased then?

I've never made any claims I can't back up, the same can't be said for the unionists on this thread, which I've picked up on and have been met with silence in return.I'm prepared to debate this, but only if you come armed with facts and not nonsense, or you can continue to make sleekit sarcastic replies, they'll only benefit the yes vote with undecideds

I'm interested in your side of the debate but you do come across as someone who doesn't see any merits in the NO campaign, you also answer comments on currency and Europe in the same mould as Salmond ie, they cant do that and they wont do that (currency union, eu membership), you are very one sided.

How do you square the above comment with your dismissal, last week, of George Soros as "talking a lot of guff"?

Good point.

As you will gather, I'm currently a NO voter as if im honest I probably fear the change and nothing in the YES campaign is making me excited about the change.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

According to George Soros it would seem that the euro would be the most likely currency for Scotland in the event of a Yes vote.

If so I wish all you Scots the best of luck.

Well George Soros is talking guff, but trot on and take his word for it.

How do you square the above comment with your dismissal, last week, of George Soros as "talking a lot of guff"?

Because he was.The most likely currency for any indy Scotland would be the £.Now whether that's in some sort of structured currency union with England or not is another thing entirely, but the suggestion from Soros we'll be using the Euro is guff.I stand by that assertion.

I'm interested in your side of the debate but you do come across as someone who doesn't see any merits in the NO campaign, you also answer comments on currency and Europe in the same mould as Salmond ie, they cant do that and they wont do that (currency union, eu membership), you are very one sided.



Good point.

As you will gather, I'm currently a NO voter as if im honest I probably fear the change and nothing in the YES campaign is making me excited about the change.

I cannot see one glimmer of merit in any argument put forward by the No campaign, whether asking Barroso to claim we'd be refused entry into the EU on the back of endorsing his NATO nomination, or refusal to even discuss a formal currency union, I see nothing +.I see Darling and Brown pontificating about financial matters when these two men are the reason we are where we are.I see Osbourne coming to Edinburgh and refusing to answer any questions after he's told us how things are.

Legally we can us the £ whether anyone wants us to or not, Legally I'm a European citizen and I'd be fascinated how Brussels would go about removing those rights, and removing those EU citizens living and working in Scotland.Legally we can join the EU and not use the currency.

I see nothing but fear and loathing from the No campaign, I see diverse range of views from those keen independence.

Have a look here>http://allofusfirst.org/ or here > http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/ or here > http://nationalcollective.com/

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Over the last few weeks I've read experts and Westminster tell us that an iScotland won't be in a 'sterling zone' with rUK; it won't be in the EU (at least for some time) so no Euro; and it wouldn't be able to operate it's own currency. Now if I believe all of that then an iScotland wouldn't have a currency - really? No currency? So which of the aforementioned do I disbelieve as they can't all be true.

 

[Foxholer]

As you will gather, I'm currently a NO voter as if im honest I probably fear the change and nothing in the YES campaign is making me excited about the change.

Val,

Not an unreasonable attitude. That's the greatest hurdle the Yes campaign has to overcome imo.

But I don't believe it shouldn't be the change (transition) itself that you should make your mind on, but the 'vision' of where you see Scotland - and UK - 20+ years from now.

If the Yes campaign has not inspired you to believe in their vision, then they have failed, in your case. If the No campaign has bogged them down explaining details of the transition, rules for which haven't even been established, then they have done a good, if negative, job too.

If the Yes wish to go the 'negative campaign' route, they should start hammering the London-centric approach of Westminster - £50bn for HS2 for no benefit to Scotland. 15k new homes in a new Garden City - no benefit to Scotland.

But I believe your main 'fear' is the loss to Scotland of 'Scottish' business. If the Yes campaign can convince you, and many others of course, that either that won't happen or that it will actually benefit Scotland - by making a more balanced economy - they will convert a lot of those that would vote No out of fear imo.

Legally we can us the £ whether anyone wants us to or not

This I agree with.

Legally I'm a European citizen and I'd be fascinated how Brussels would go about removing those rights, and removing those EU citizens living and working in Scotland.Legally we can join the EU and not use the currency.

The fact that you are saying 'we can join the EU', by whatever means rather indicates that (initially) you expect to not be part of the EU. Is it relevant that you describe yourself as a European citizen rather than an EU one? EU membership having been lost, it only takes 1 vote to prevent you from rejoining.
The issue of EU (or UK) citizens living/working in Scotland is something for EU (or UK) and Scotland to negotiate/decide. I can't see it working any other way than now, even if not part of EU unless the Scotland UK border was policed!

I see nothing but fear and loathing from the No campaign, I see diverse range of views from those keen independence.

Open the other eye then?

Always was destined to be a 'negative' campaign.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Because he was.The most likely currency for any indy Scotland would be the £.Now whether that's in some sort of structured currency union with England or not is another thing entirely, but the suggestion from Soros we'll be using the Euro is guff.I stand by that assertion.

Just because that is what you want to happen does not mean that it is the most likely outcome. Yes there is the possibility of Scotland continuing to use sterling but without any controls or influence over exchange or interest rates.

Surely, therefore, assuming Scotland was allowed to join the EU it would be better to join the euro and at least have some control, however limited.

Or, deep down are you not completely confident that EU membership is a given.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Just because that is what you want to happen does not mean that it is the most likely outcome. Yes there is the possibility of Scotland continuing to use sterling but without any controls or influence over exchange or interest rates.

Surely, therefore, assuming Scotland was allowed to join the EU it would be better to join the euro and at least have some control, however limited.

Or, deep down are you not completely confident that EU membership is a given.

Not entirely sure you're being serious or just fishing.I've stated my beliefs, all based on verifiable laws.If you think Scotland wouldn't have the £ or EU membership I'm OK with that.I try to answer as honestly as I'm able (I answer what I believe will happen, not what I WANT to happen) so in the spirit of fairness, could you answer the following please?

1) Scotland and Scottish citizens are paid up members of The European Union, we've paid our dues and we're good citizens.In the event of a Yes vote, can you forsee any reason for that not to continue?And if your answer is no, what do you think would happen to the rights I've had and the French/Polish/German/Spanish nationals living and working in Scotland?Would they be told they have no longer the right to live here?

2)The £ is a fully tradeable currency, if Ukraine decides tomorrow to use the £ there is nothing anyone can do to stop them, same applies to Scotland.Would it make sense for rUK to enter into dialogue with iScotland to arrange some formal guidelines making both economies run parallel to each other, or should rUK refuse to entertain such proposals, similar proposals they currently have with IoM?

3)Why do you think that never seen before in peace time cross party agreement and solidarity at Westminster against Scottish independence is so vocal?What possible reason does the Conservative party have for keeping a left leaning electorate in play?

4)As the £ is obviously the main bargaining tool of rUK in all of this, do you think that coulport and faslane are as weighty a barginaing tool for the yes campaign?

 

[Deleted member 18588]

1) The whole point of a YES vote is surely a new beginning. This equally applies to EU membership. Scottish citizens are members of the EU whilst they remain within the UK. You can't retain just parts of the status quo.

2) It is not disputed that Scotland could retain sterling. The question is why would they if they had no control or influence. Would it make sense for the UK to enter into a concorde with Scotland post a YES vote? No not really as it would appear that the two countries and their economies would have distinctly different objectives.

3) The full title of the Tory party remains, I believe, the Conservative & Unionist Party. I agree that many grass root Tory supporters south of the border would, however, be "glad to see the back of the Scots".

4) The naval bases are, I agree, an issue but there are bases in England that could be used and due to current employment issues the locals would welcome this.

 

[Foxholer]

.....
1) Scotland and Scottish citizens are paid up members of The European Union, we've paid our dues and we're good citizens.In the event of a Yes vote, can you forsee any reason for that not to continue?And if your answer is no, what do you think would happen to the rights I've had and the French/Polish/German/Spanish nationals living and working in Scotland?Would they be told they have no longer the right to live here?

The first statement of that question is invalid.

Point to any agreement between EU and Scotland - that isn't through the UK. Show me an official, current, document that indicates anyone is a Scottish citizen - as opposed to a UK one.

How iScotland and EU deal with the EU workers etc, should iScotland not be admitted, is up to negotiation. There are already examples. Being a member of the EEA provides all the benefits without the hassle! I expect that's a much more likely route than direct into EU.

 

[Val]

Val,

Not an unreasonable attitude. That's the greatest hurdle the Yes campaign has to overcome imo.

But I don't believe it shouldn't be the change (transition) itself that you should make your mind on, but the 'vision' of where you see Scotland - and UK - 20+ years from now.

You see thats where the fear part comes in, 20 years + is when I'm looking at retiring so from a purely selfish point of view (is their any other in this debate) the fear is what has to drive my thinking.

Should I be more optimistic post YES? Probably but lets be honest, the recent massive global economic meltdown has lots of folk my age thinking further ahead in terms of what is lying waiting (or not waiting for that matter) for us.

If the Yes campaign has not inspired you to believe in their vision, then they have failed, in your case. If the No campaign has bogged them down explaining details of the transition, rules for which haven't even been established, then they have done a good, if negative, job too.

I think that is the case currently, I think the NO campaign still have to up the ante, what I mean is actually campaign for a NO rather than throw curve balls in about Economy/Currency/EU etc etc and really get those with a bit of fear more scared of change.

But I believe your main 'fear' is the loss to Scotland of 'Scottish' business. If the Yes campaign can convince you, and many others of course, that either that won't happen or that it will actually benefit Scotland - by making a more balanced economy - they will convert a lot of those that would vote No out of fear imo.

Absolutely spot on but the major hurdle I see is currency and cross border trading and until they get a definitive on that then lots of large Scottish businesses won't break cover in support and more will remain in the NO camp privately (believe me it's happening now).

Very good post Foxholer :thup:

 

[Adi2Dassler]

1) The whole point of a YES vote is surely a new beginning. This equally applies to EU membership. Scottish citizens are members of the EU whilst they remain within the UK. You can't retain just parts of the status quo.

2) It is not disputed that Scotland could retain sterling. The question is why would they if they had no control or influence. Would it make sense for the UK to enter into a concorde with Scotland post a YES vote? No not really as it would appear that the two countries and their economies would have distinctly different objectives.

3) The full title of the Tory party remains, I believe, the Conservative & Unionist Party. I agree that many grass root Tory supporters south of the border would, however, be "glad to see the back of the Scots".

4) The naval bases are, I agree, an issue but there are bases in England that could be used and due to current employment issues the locals would welcome this.

4) I wasn't talking about jobs, I was talking about coulport, which for some reason, neither side are making much noise about.There is no where in The UK like coulport and suggestions are it would take 10+ years to recreate, thats once you've found somewhere you're actually allowed to put it.Between oil receipts and coulport...the only two reasons westminster want the union to continue...no coulport=no nukes=no security council=etc

3) I didn't mean 'glad to see the back' merchants, I meant they need Scotland for oil and nukes.

2)which means after negotiations we'll get our currency union and rUK will get a stay of execution on coulport

The first statement of that question is invalid.

Point to any agreement between EU and Scotland - that isn't through the UK. Show me an official, current, document that indicates anyone is a Scottish citizen - as opposed to a UK one.

How iScotland and EU deal with the EU workers etc, should iScotland not be admitted, is up to negotiation. There are already examples. Being a member of the EEA provides all the benefits without the hassle! I expect that's a much more likely route than direct into EU.

There is no document between Scotland and any international body, except maybe, the commonwealth.We'll be welcomed in to the sound of the skirl into The UN,EU and any other body we decide we'd like to join.

The ukraine is an interesting current reference.There is suggestions that NATO wanted to site missiles there and it effectively kicked off the crimea nonsense.I seriously doubt NATO would want a big gap in their defences in the north atlantic either, so NATO/FIFA/EU and Nandos will all give us a big cuddle and pour the brandies.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

4) The naval bases are, I agree, an issue but there are bases in England that could be used ...

Not if you believe Vice-Adml John McAnally

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...force-Britain-to-abandon-nuclear-weapons.html

 

[Deleted member 18588]

There is an old saying that if you kid yourself on long enough you will end up believing it!

Apparently the whole world is just waiting to welcome Scotland into whatever they like and on Scotland's terms.

Aye right!

 

[Adi2Dassler]

There is an old saying that if you kid yourself on long enough you will end up believing it!

Apparently the whole world is just waiting to welcome Scotland into whatever they like and on Scotland's terms.

Aye right!

Well they're certainly not lining up to refuse us entry into the international fold as a responsible nation, contrary to the spin coming from BT

 

[Foxholer]

Not if you believe Vice-Adml John McAnally

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...force-Britain-to-abandon-nuclear-weapons.html

Er. Correction. 'Not if you believe the headline of an article quoting him!'

'"every possibility" ... could ' magically becomes 'Will' in the headline!

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Well they're certainly not lining up to refuse us entry into the international fold as a responsible nation, contrary to the spin coming from BT

Sorry what did Barroso say about EU membership for an independent Scotland?

Oh yes he was talking guff wasn't he!