Scotland Debate

[FairwayDodger]

Surely Cameron IS on the side and part of the NO campaign if simply from observing his exhorting the rest of UK to encourage the Scots electorate to vote NO to stay in the union. If he doesn't support the NO campaign he wouldn't be doing so.

Of course he is but he's also the last guy that unionists would want as their poster boy!

 

[Foxholer]

The whole salmond v Cameron debate thing is such a transparently obvious tactic it's quite depressing. Salmond doesn't want a debate, he wants to manipulate things to associate Cameron and the Tories (almost universally despised up here) directly with the no campaign and turn it into an "independence or Tories" question. If he really wanted a debate he'd have one with darling or Alexander who are both happy to take up the challenge.

This issue transcends party politics, I'd take all the politicians out of it right now and make an end to all this pathetic childish posturing.

"Oh they're feart, they're bullies"; the man has no shame.

Would be nice, but absolutely impossible to do. It's a 100% Political issue after all!

Surely Cameron IS on the side and part of the NO campaign if simply from observing his exhorting the rest of UK to encourage the Scots electorate to vote NO to stay in the union. If he doesn't support the NO campaign he wouldn't be doing so.

Of course he is but he's also the last guy that unionists would want as their poster boy!

Which was a reasonably smart piece of good fortune/timing by Salmon.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Of course he is but he's also the last guy that unionists would want as their poster boy!

Absolutely. But he is still Prime Minister of the UK so should be up there fighting for the union not hiding behind some wheedling and disingenuous excuses about it being Scotland's debate,

 

[FairwayDodger]

Absolutely. But he is still Prime Minister of the UK so should be up there fighting for the union not hiding behind some wheedling and disingenuous excuses about it being Scotland's debate,

The best thing he can do to keep the union together is stay out of the debate as much as possible. Sad but true.

This is not a short term decision about who the uk pm happens to be at the moment, frankly, that should be irrelevant.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

In another time scale, I wonder if Thatcher would have debated.

 

[NWJocko]

In another time scale, I wonder if Thatcher would have debated.

In Thatchers time there wouldn't be the thirst for an American style tv debate! Still not particularly sure about them.....

Re Cameron, a Tory PM telling Scottish people what to do (however well intentioned) would probably not have the desired effect!

I agree with Fairwaydodger that the current incumbents' (FM and PM) are not important so some televised debate amounting to petty politicking between them doesn't really seem so important to me.

I would wish Salmond would speak with him (and whoever else as necessary) to,provide more clarity where possible around events post anYes vote.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I would like to hear from the Scottish Labour, Liberal and Tory parties as to what they would do if the nation votes Yes.

 

[SocketRocket]

Something that confuses me. Seeing that every Labour Government has such a disastrous record with managing the economy, why do Scottish people want them in power 'And' if Labour were set to be the UK's Government for say the next 20 years would this affect Scotland's desire for independence?

 

[Val]

Something that confuses me. Seeing that every Labour Government has such a disastrous record with managing the economy, why do Scottish people want them in power 'And' if Labour were set to be the UK's Government for say the next 20 years would this affect Scotland's desire for independence?

What makes you think we want Labour? It's probably more that we dont want a Tory government and realise the only way to out them is voting Labour.

If the Scottish wanted Labour they'd have a majority in Holyrood and we wouldnt be dealing with this independance nonsense. I'm of the belief that people in Scotland voted SNP as they offered more than Labour however those who voted did not automatically want independance by voting SNP, I believe had this independence referendum been on the cards im not convinced we'd have had a SNP majority at Holyrood.

 

[Val]

At the moment!

Things must be really bad as I saw that a recent poll had Labour in the lead for 2015.
The Kippers vote seems to have collapsed.

At the moment yes, but we are dealing with the moment and it's 9939% certain he'll be Prime Minister of the union come September.

 

[Foxholer]

... I'm of the belief that people in Scotland voted SNP as they offered more than Labour however those who voted did not automatically want independance by voting SNP, I believe had this independence referendum been on the cards im not convinced we'd have had a SNP majority at Holyrood.

But a referendum was a fundamental part of the SNP Manifesto! So they were warned at least - even if, as may/may not be the case, they weren't after independence. Of course, those that weren't will vote NO, or at least, not vote YES.

In another time scale, I wonder if Thatcher would have debated.

Mutually exclusive terms!

Remember the way the Poll Tax was foisted upon Scotland - and the consequences!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The best thing he can do to keep the union together is stay out of the debate as much as possible. Sad but true.

This is not a short term decision about who the uk pm happens to be at the moment, frankly, that should be irrelevant.

Though he did say today that voters should judge on policies not personalities - and he was referring to Alex Salmond. So Dave get out there and debate on policy not personality and trust the scots electorate to differentiate between the two. Or do you not trust in their ability to do that. Ah - there's the rub. Damned if you do - damned if you don't.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In Thatchers time there wouldn't be the thirst for an American style tv debate! Still not particularly sure about them.....

Re Cameron, a Tory PM telling Scottish people what to do (however well intentioned) would probably not have the desired effect!

I agree with Fairwaydodger that the current incumbents' (FM and PM) are not important so some televised debate amounting to petty politicking between them doesn't really seem so important to me.

I would wish Salmond would speak with him (and whoever else as necessary) to,provide more clarity where possible around events post anYes vote.

Don't forget that the referendum bill requires in the event of a YES vote for the rUK to work with an iScotland for the best solution to situation and issues - that hence by definition there is an joint understanding cannot be resolved prior to the referendum.

 

[Slab]

Just popping into this thread now and again but wanted to say that what really scares me is not what will happen to xyz in the event of a Yes vote, but actually what will happen to xyz in the event of a No vote because if No means No Change, that might just scare me enough to vote Yes (if I lived in Scotland)

Was also pondering about the Union on the way to work this morning and how equal it is, 300 years old so they say, cant even change the currency to say Bank of United Kingdom in 300 years, good effort lads!

Might have helped the equal partner thing if Scots didn't have to change their currency when crossing to England!

edit: sorry I know the above isn't even worthy of schoolboy logic, it just seems like both camps have resorted to sticking their fingers in their ears giving in lalalalalala whenever the people want a straight answer

 

[FairwayDodger]

But a referendum was a fundamental part of the SNP Manifesto! So they were warned at least - even if, as may/may not be the case, they weren't after independence. Of course, those that weren't will vote NO, or at least, not vote YES.

That's part if the problem with party politics and FPTP. If I felt I could only vote for a party whose manifesto I agreed with 100% I would never have voted... Ever!

 

[ger147]

Well as a Scot with a vote in September this year who hasn't 100% made his mind up about what way he will vote, all I can say about the debate so far is that the best advocates for a Yes vote are the No campaign and the best advocates for a No vote are the Yes campaign.

Being faced with such a momentous decision, it would be nice, just for once, to have a proper debate about the pros and cons and the facts about the decision we face. I'll just stick to my Lotto ticket - better chance of my numbers coming up.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Something that confuses me. Seeing that every Labour Government has such a disastrous record with managing the economy, why do Scottish people want them in power 'And' if Labour were set to be the UK's Government for say the next 20 years would this affect Scotland's desire for independence?

There has to be a distinction drawn between New Labour and Scottish Labour.New Labour are virtually dead in Scotland, like the Lib Dem party, they're no longer the party of Keir Hardie, but there are reasons for that and you need to appreciate that UK wide, leftism wins you nothing.Now the Scottish electorate are the most tuned in group of voters, we see the difference between Holyrood and Westminster, appreciate The SNP @ Westminster is futile, refuse to vote conservative and, up until the coallition would have vote Lib Dem but they're done in now too.So we have to either not vote or vote New Labour in a UK GE.

There is still hope that in iScotland, Scottish Labour will refind their routes and challenge The SNP on centre left.

 

[Foxholer]

There has to be a distinction drawn between New Labour and Scottish Labour.New Labour are virtually dead in Scotland, like the Lib Dem party, they're no longer the party of Keir Hardie, but there are reasons for that and you need to appreciate that UK wide, leftism wins you nothing.Now the Scottish electorate are the most tuned in group of voters, we see the difference between Holyrood and Westminster, appreciate The SNP @ Westminster is futile, refuse to vote conservative and, up until the coallition would have vote Lib Dem but they're done in now too.So we have to either not vote or vote New Labour in a UK GE.

There is still hope that in iScotland, Scottish Labour will refind their routes and challenge The SNP on centre left.

While you could well be right and there's a lot I agree with in that, I can't resist the following reinterpretation of some bits.....
How about....
Scots voters are a fickle lot, though stubbornly consistent in their 'balanced' hatred of Westminster and the Tories - or any party associated with them. With luck, someone will challenge SNP who are simply the best of a bad lot.

 

[Val]

But a referendum was a fundamental part of the SNP Manifesto! So they were warned at least - even if, as may/may not be the case, they weren't after independence. Of course, those that weren't will vote NO, or at least, not vote YES.

It's a fair point I suppose and if im honest I cannot remember the last Scottish elections where the referendum was a key part of the SNP campaign, im not saying it wasn't I just don't recall it.

 

[Val]

While you could well be right and there's a lot I agree with in that, I can't resist the following reinterpretation of some bits.....
How about....
Scots voters are a fickle lot, though stubbornly consistent in their 'balanced' hatred of Westminster and the Tories - or any party associated with them. With luck, someone will challenge SNP who are simply the best of a bad lot.

That bold bit is key, thats why I believe we have what we have currently in Scotland. Probably a bit like Tony Blairs' Labour who at the time were the same IMO. Governments in power have a shelf life, Labour had their time and now it's the Coalitions turn to try their good ideas and see how they fail and then realign themselves to new ideas before being voted out. It's happened for generations.