Scotland Debate

[ger147]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...rray-useless-jock-is-convicted-of-racism.html

If you read this then it would appear so...

Absolute nonsense!!!

If the post office chap in question had called Wayne Rooney an "English (insert derogatory sweary word)", he would also have been found guilty of racially aggravated criminal damage. That does NOT mean calling someone English becomes racist.

 

[Val]

So using the term jock is now racist because one guy as convicted of abusing someone ?!

Blimey I have been racially abusing my sister in law all these years !!

That detracts from the true racist abuse

It appears so, unless the judges have it wrong too.

 

[Old Skier]

I have a Highland mate and you should hear what he calls the Lowlanders, now that is close to the mark.

 

[Old Skier]

It appears so, unless the judges have it wrong too.

Don't you think it might have been in context of the overall case and not based on a term of in-dearment

 

[Val]

Don't you think it might have been in context of the overall case and not based on a term of in-dearment

I don't know is the honest answer, the word racist was used. I don't think that's open to debate. It either is or isn't

 

[ger147]

From the CPS website:


To prove that an offence is racially or religiously aggravated, the prosecution has to prove the "basic" offence followed by racial or religious aggravation, as defined in section 28 Crime and Disorder Act 1998. An offence will be racially or religiously aggravated if:


a) at the time of the offence (or shortly before or after), the offender demonstrates to the victim hostility based on the victim's membership (or presumed membership) of a racial or religious group, or


b) the offence is motivated wholly or partly by hostility towards members of a racial or religious group based on their membership (or presumed membership) of that group.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/racist_and_religious_crime/


A bit more too it than using the word Jock to a Scotsman...

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I don't know is the honest answer, the word racist was used. I don't think that's open to debate. It either is or isn't

That definitely is open to debate.

The phrase "racially aggravated" was used. Not racist. Anything beyond racially aggravated is the writings of the newspaper, and I would argue, attempting to gain readers through emotive language.

 

[Val]

That definitely is open to debate.

The phrase "racially aggravated" was used. Not racist. Anything beyond racially aggravated is the writings of the newspaper, and I would argue, attempting to gain readers through emotive language.

Ok racially aggravated, so does that make it ok?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I don't know is the honest answer, the word racist was used. I don't think that's open to debate. It either is or isn't

Ok here is my view

I I use the term jock/jockanese to describe my Scottish friends in a humorous light hearted banter way and it is taken that way

I have used those terms for over 20 years now and not one single person has been offended let alone against me of being racist or using a racist term

So what do you think ? Based on what you say - I'm racially abusing my friends and family ? Yes ?

 

[SocketRocket]

You have to take it in context. He was not convicted just for using the word 'Jock' As mentioned in an earlier post: Racism is where someone suggests a race is inferior or that theirs is superior. He was also guilty of criminal damage.

"He denied the charges but was found guilty of three counts of criminal damage and two of racially aggravated criminal damage."

 

[ger147]

Ok racially aggravated, so does that make it ok?

He was convicted for criminal damage and it was racially aggravated as he was abusing someone for being Scottish. If he has scrawled "Scottish ......" he would have been convicted just the same, but the word Scottish would not become racist.

Do you not see the distinction or are you simply ignoring it?

 

[Foxholer]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...rray-useless-jock-is-convicted-of-racism.html

If you read this then it would appear so...

The actually offense was 'Racially Aggravated Criminal Damage' - there's no actual 'Racism' offense as such.
However, I'm almost certain the same charge would have been made, and succeeded if he'd written '...useless Scot'! So not necessarily the word itself, but the context is important as well.

 

[Val]

Ok here is my view

I I use the term jock/jockanese to describe my Scottish friends in a humorous light hearted banter way and it is taken that way

I have used those terms for over 20 years now and not one single person has been offended let alone against me of being racist or using a racist term

So what do you think ? Based I want you say - I'm racially abusing my friends and family ? Yes ?

Why are you trying to justify it?

Call it what you like, it's casual racism, not different to what corner shops run by Pakistanis or chinese take outs get called.

Just because no one has complained until now doesn't make it acceptable.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Why are you trying to justify it?

Call it what you like, it's casual racism, not different to what corner shops run by Pakistanis or chinese take outs get called.

Just because no one has complained until now doesn't make it acceptable.

So you think I'm racially abusing my friends and family and it's unacceptable ?

 

[Val]

He was convicted for criminal damage and it was racially aggravated as he was abusing someone for being Scottish. If he has scrawled "Scottish ......" he would have been convicted just the same, but the word Scottish would not become racist.

Do you not see the distinction or are you simply ignoring it?

I do see the distinction but you miss the point, he didn't say Scottish

 

[Val]

So you think I'm racially abusing my friends and family and it's unacceptable ?

Why are you trying to justify it? Do you want it accepted?

I'll say it again in case you missed it the last time

It's casual racism. Whether it's accepted or not by family and friends is irrelevant, it is what it is

 

[ger147]

I do see the distinction but you miss the point, he didn't say Scottish

The precise word used is irrelevant to whether he was convicted or not, it was abusing someone for being Scottish as well as the criminal damage that was his offence.

I'm not missing the point as the word Jock is not the point.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I do see the distinction but you miss the point, he didn't say Scottish

You really must be being obtuse on purpose. It doesn't matter what he wrote, to make it racially aggravated. It doesn't make whatever word he used racist. It is the way it is written, intending to demean someone based on their "race"/nationality etc. Just by calling someone a Scot/Jock out of that context is not racist, it's just a name for a group of people. It doesn't imply worse/better etc.

And regarding Pakistani corner shops, the reason that word became contentious was because it was used as an agressive insulting term. Jock, however, isn't. Just like Taff, Mick etc etc.

 

[Val]

You really must be being obtuse on purpose. It doesn't matter what he wrote, to make it racially aggravated. It doesn't make whatever word he used racist. It is the way it is written, intending to demean someone based on their "race"/nationality etc. Just by calling someone a Scot/Jock out of that context is not racist, it's just a name for a group of people. It doesn't imply worse/better etc.

And regarding Pakistani corner shops, the reason that word became contentious was because it was used as an agressive insulting term. Jock, however, isn't. Just like Taff, Mick etc etc.

Another trying to justify it being ok

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Another trying to justify it being ok

I thought we clarified that I thought it was ok a long while ago in this thread?!

I'm yet to hear anything to suggests that it is offensive, racist, or any such like.

Does this mean I should get offended at being called a Taff? Damn, I haven't been. Can I claim that being called Short is offensive to me as well now? Think it's called "height-ist". I mean, I always thought that it was someone pointing out a fact, that I'm short, just like pointing out a Jock is from Scotland.