Scotland Debate

[Beezerk]

But that's where Tony Benn's Five Questions of Power/Democracy truly apply!

*opens Google in another web page*

 

[Slab]

The entire debate is being framed in a very narrow corridor.Does it really matter about military or currency?Does anyone seriously think we'll be decimated by yes?We'll have no money or no soldiers?Doe sthe demand for clarity on answers from Salmond by Darling really progress things?Why does the white paper have to be the reference point for everything?The SNP or Labour or Conservative or Green are not that important.

Everything, everything will work itself out as best as possible.Will it be better than rUK?I don't actually care.I'm not competing with rUk to be better than them, just the same.Will be get into the EU?Probably, but so what?Same applies to NATO.Folk are framing this entire debate in such a narrow perspective it's a crying shame.We're debating (sometimes agressively, but tahts good imo) the rebirth of a nation, one that would want to be a good partner, a responsible neighbour and a contributing society.A nation that wants to take responsibility and accountability for itself.For me, thats awesome.Terrifying,exciting and draining all at the same time and I cannae wait.

Obviously I took too long typing my own version of this which you'll see a few post below yours, but wanted to say I fully agree

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Speaking of contingency plans, I just heard on the radio that the UK Treasury have finally admitted to having one post YES.
It was in true Yes Minister 'Mandarin' speak actually, contingency plans to make a contingency plan.
Better hurry folks only two weeks to go.

 

[CMAC]

Agree I think there's a serious risk a No vote will imply a backing for the status quo when it could also be a simple vote against the only choice on offer, but that's the risk of a single question referendum

I see what your saying about a re-run but I fear it would just roll on for decades until political or social changes swing a sufficient majority one way or t'other

As one of the Scottish diaspora (only gone 30 months & who'll return sooner rather than later) I'd love to be part of the decision but I've had to accept that if I get it then a 70 year old who emigrated from Carnoustie to Canada 65 years ago would also get a say and I don't really want that (whatever the cut off it will always disadvantage someone)



And as a general comment to save a separate post:

I still see far too many side issues being cited in order to justify a vote for either side. Does anyone really believe that Scotland will descend to third world status in the event of a Yes, or be invaded, or have no currency in our wallets etc etc?

Independence will be a tough road and might even cost a shilling or two more but the choice of self determination has to be separated from the posturing and scaremongering (from both sides)

In truth we don't actually need definitive answers right now to every possible post yes scenario for defense, currency, health, education etc. This is far bigger than any of these things

I see and read about political & other figures round the world saying don't do it, don't go... but in truth every one of them are looking from the outside & looking out for their own interests and what Scottish independence might mean to their model of the world

Only the people in Scotland are looking from the inside out (& not even all of them) so its no surprise many on here cant grasp what attraction Independence holds

Take off your rose tinted glasses a minute and enlighten us? please don't use the YES campaigns words of "wonderful, successful, buoyant, happy, prosperous, thriving etc etc without any detail as they have/are doing.

There are some on here that think an independent Scotland will be like Brigadoon, just perfect and full of happy clappy people who think it will be alright in the long run, they don't know why but they are sure it will be. Unbelievable.

 

[CMAC]

Speaking of contingency plans, I just heard on the radio that the UK Treasury have finally admitted to having one post YES.
It was in true Yes Minister 'Mandarin' speak actually, contingency plans to make a contingency plan.
Better hurry folks only two weeks to go.

Did you seriously think they didnt have one? are you that naive!

 

[FairwayDodger]

The entire debate is being framed in a very narrow corridor.Does it really matter about military or currency?Does anyone seriously think we'll be decimated by yes?We'll have no money or no soldiers?Doe sthe demand for clarity on answers from Salmond by Darling really progress things?Why does the white paper have to be the reference point for everything?The SNP or Labour or Conservative or Green are not that important.

Everything, everything will work itself out as best as possible.Will it be better than rUK?I don't actually care.I'm not competing with rUk to be better than them, just the same.Will be get into the EU?Probably, but so what?Same applies to NATO.Folk are framing this entire debate in such a narrow perspective it's a crying shame.We're debating (sometimes agressively, but tahts good imo) the rebirth of a nation, one that would want to be a good partner, a responsible neighbour and a contributing society.A nation that wants to take responsibility and accountability for itself.For me, thats awesome.Terrifying,exciting and draining all at the same time and I cannae wait.

Broadly, I think you are right. It should be about the principle of independence, of nationalism versus unity going forward. But, while Scotland could clearly survive quite happily there are some specifics that people are concerned about. It's not unreasonable to want to know what you're getting into in the short term.

For me, however, on the opposite side to yourself I find the minutia being debated to be largely irrelevant and depressing. Countries breaking up into smaller states are moving in the wrong direction, in my opinion. I'd like to see the whole world ending the twin scourges of nationalism and religion that divide us and coming together for the benefit of all mankind. Lol, I said it - bring on the withering put down.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Did you seriously think they didnt have one? are you that naive!

Haud onnnnnnnnn, THEY said they did not have one.

[Do you infer they were telling fibs]

 

[Slab]

Take off your rose tinted glasses a minute and enlighten us? please don't use the YES campaigns words of "wonderful, successful, buoyant, happy, prosperous, thriving etc etc without any detail as they have/are doing.

There are some on here that think an independent Scotland will be like Brigadoon, just perfect and full of happy clappy people who think it will be alright in the long run, they don't know why but they are sure it will be. Unbelievable.

I didn't use any of those words & doubt I'll waste any on your facetious reply either

And they're polarized sunglasses not rose tinted

 

[Foxholer]

I'd like to see the whole world ending the twin scourges of nationalism and religion that divide us and coming together for the benefit of all mankind. Lol, I said it - bring on the withering put down.

Nice thought (Blue Mink's Melting Pot springs to mind), but never going to happen!

Best way to 'conquer' Nationalism imo is to actually accede to their aims and provide the Nations! That, of course causes different issues they are probably less dangerous than Nationalism. Religion - often associated with Nationalism anyway - is, however, a different problem!

...
And they're polarized sunglasses not rose tinted

Not sure that helps you pov! Polarized lenses only allow light aligned 1 way to pass through!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

When did anyone say it's Scotland's fault ?

Also when did anyone say that because England and Wales can't do something Scotland also can't ?

I often read here the point that many of the issues supporters of YES Scotland state as reasons for independence are the same issues that many in England and Wales have. The conclusion being that these are not good reasons for voting YES.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I often read here the point that many of the issues supporters of YES Scotland state as reasons for independence are the same issues that many in England and Wales have. The conclusion being that these are not good reasons for voting YES.

That hasn't really answered both the questions and you have made your own conclusions of other people's posts.

But I'm going to guess - the answer to both is "no one"

 

[CMAC]

I didn't use any of those words & doubt I'll waste any on your facetious reply either

And they're polarized sunglasses not rose tinted

I know you didnt, maybe read the post again but properly.

However, I'm actually not interested in your reply, I could write it for you as you're clearly in the "it'll be alright on the night" camp.

What a great method to decide how to use your vote.

 

[Slab]

I know you didnt, maybe read the post again but properly.

However, I'm actually not interested in your reply, I could write it for you as you're clearly in the "it'll be alright on the night" camp.

What a great method to decide how to use your vote.

CMAC "....please don't use the YES campaigns words of "wonderful, successful, buoyant, happy, prosperous, thriving etc etc without any detail"

Your quite right of course, you actually asked me not to do something I wasn't doing anyway! As I said, facetious post

 

[Adi2Dassler]

What a great method to decide how to use your vote.

There are infinite methods as to how you decide to vote, none of them wrong.

Folk hate English, vote yes
Folk love Doctor Who, vote no
Folk support Rangers, vote no
Folk fancy Nicola Sturgeon, vote yes
Folk fancy John Barrowman, vote no
Folk love Tennents lager, vote yes

etc

You may disagree with some of them, but that's not the point.If that person thinks that's his decider, then crack on.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I know you didnt, maybe read the post again but properly.

However, I'm actually not interested in your reply, I could write it for you as you're clearly in the "it'll be alright on the night" camp.

What a great method to decide how to use your vote.

You are being a bit selective there Mac.
The whole of the UK voted in New Labour under the slogan........Things can only get better.
There has to be a leap of faith anywhere a new government is formed, Scotland is no different.

 

[FairwayDodger]

You are being a bit selective there Mac.
The whole of the UK voted in New Labour under the slogan........Things can only get better.
There has to be a leap of faith anywhere a new government is formed, Scotland is no different.

And now you're being a bit selective. This isn't a general election, we can't change our minds in five years. This is a one way trip into the unknown so while your analogy isn't entirely spurious neither is it a true comparison.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

If I were living in the rUK I would be very anxious to see the Governments contingency plans, post YES. Why are they keeping their residents in the dark?

An Independent Scotland would have a considerable effect on rUK but their leaders both North and South of the Border seem to have no plans whatsoever. At the same time the are trying to nail the SNP to the floor over their plans. Plans which are out in the open and everyone can see.

Perhaps we can have some replies to my first sentence from rUK posters instead of the constant sniping of the SNP.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm pretty sure they have plans in place - why do they need to tell us

If there is a yes vote then they can let us know the plans

 

[CMAC]

CMAC "....please don't use the YES campaigns words of "wonderful, successful, buoyant, happy, prosperous, thriving etc etc without any detail"

Your quite right of course, you actually asked me not to do something I wasn't doing anyway! As I said, facetious post

selective quoting to change the meaning!! very clever.

If you used the whole quote you will clearly see (once myopic shades removed) that I asked you to "enlighten us" without using these words that the yes campaign use.

Please dont deliberately misquote me again to try and score cheap points.

 

[Val]

If their is a YES vote people need to embrace it, all the parties and all the people and make it work, it has to work as their is no turning back.