Scotland Debate

[Beezerk]

Not against the English, except for a few sad cases, more against Westminster/London and the distribution of wealth

Like the rest of us then mate :thup:

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

As I repeat, whatever he says makes no difference, just like yours, his opinion counts for nowt.

Up until now, I thought you were coming across with some valid, well thought out points, and I could see why you believed in the Yes vote as much as you do.

Completely dismissing any opinions out of hand if they can't vote, however, is just crazy.

If a world leading economist from Germany (insert any country outside of Scotland) turned around and said it would 90% destroy the Scottish economy to vote Yes, OR, it would actually almost definitely result in a massive boost, could you ignore that?!

You refer to the man on the street who is uninformed, would you not prefer he researched the opinions of those significantly more informed, or do you want him to vote based on a popularity contest, on who has the bigger balls, Salmond or Darling.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

As I repeat, whatever he says makes no difference, just like yours, his opinion counts for nowt.


And I keep hearing about this bitterness and nastiness.Seriously? Darling and Carmichael mention it loads, as does Murphy.Robust debate and the capacity to reduce each others point of view is what I see.Grow a set and get tore in, or sit this one out and go talk about over paid footballers.

I expect his opinion on Scotland ability to meet their defence obligations is far more relevant than yours

And just because people don't have a vote doesn't mean they have a valid opinion same with companies etc which express worry over a yes vote which you keep dismissing

Prob maybe cause you don't want to hear that actually it is possible that going Independant might not be such a good idea and may have a very big detreminatial effect to Scotland and it's people and could damage the county beyond repair - but you don't want to even think that's possible

And bitterness - just read your posts - they stink of bitterness towards the English - in the probable event of a no vote I expect that bitterness to get even worse.

 

[Val]

I didn't think I was.I respect the jobs the forces do, one I wouldn't be prepared to do myself.I'm calling him irrelevant to this debate ( unless he has a vote?) He's a joker, an agent of fear, perpetuating this line that Scottish independence would result in a domino affect of failure, well I call bullshit.

You are, when opinions differ from you you bat them down with comments of "Carry on GI Joe" its very disrespectful.

In the grand scale of things his opinion is worthless when you view the fact that he doesn't live in Scotland and doesnt get a vote, however his opinion is relevant when he explains from a position of experience that manpower numbers explained in the white paper don't add up, it's not scaremongering, it's fact. He comments as follows;

"There is no mention of any naval aviation (yet Scotland would need a primarily naval force), no mention of air-to-air refuelling capability, no Mountain Rescue and no Search & Rescue capability. The White Paper proposals are dangerous and would leave Scotland, the UK and NATO weakened and less capable of dealing with the threats of today and tomorrow. Scotland deserves better"

Also

"As an example of the incoherence of SNP thinking, there are currently six infantry/Guards/Royal Marine units that are Scottish (or Scottish based) plus a further company of Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders. Yet the White Paper commits to only three such units. More bizarre, the SNP commits to reinstating all the Scottish infantry battalions lost in 2006. It simply doesn’t add up. And even if it did, where does this leave the young men who are serving with such distinction in the Royal Regiment of Scotland and made it the regiment which Scotland and all Scots can take such pride in?"

Whether we are in NATO or not these paragraph's are very worrying IMO.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Not against the English, except for a few sad cases, more against Westminster/London and the distribution of wealth

That's relevant for the English and Welsh as well

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Up until now, I thought you were coming across with some valid, well thought out points, and I could see why you believed in the Yes vote as much as you do.

Completely dismissing any opinions out of hand if they can't vote, however, is just crazy.

If a world leading economist from Germany (insert any country outside of Scotland) turned around and said it would 90% destroy the Scottish economy to vote Yes, OR, it would actually almost definitely result in a massive boost, could you ignore that?!

You refer to the man on the street who is uninformed, would you not prefer he researched the opinions of those significantly more informed, or do you want him to vote based on a popularity contest, on who has the bigger balls, Salmond or Darling.

My belief in an indy Scotland is just that, my belief.I don't expect anyone to hold the same opinion or agree.There is countless opinions within Scotland, on both sides, more than enough, maybe too many.To add to that with folk with nothing in the game makes no sense to me.I've been to listen to George Galloway, I've stood and debated and been shouted down and applauded.He has no say and I've told him so.I can't take anyone seriously who has the opinion that Scotland would fail financially.We contribute our fair share already and we'll be just fine...it won't be perfect, but it'll be as perfect as we can make it, making decisions in our best interest.

I expect his opinion on Scotland ability to meet their defence obligations is far more relevant than yours

And just because people don't have a vote doesn't mean they have a valid opinion same with companies etc which express worry over a yes vote which you keep dismissing

Prob maybe cause you don't want to hear that actually it is possible that going Independant might not be such a good idea and may have a very big detreminatial effect to Scotland and it's people and could damage the county beyond repair - but you don't want to even think that's possible

And bitterness - just read your posts - they stink of bitterness towards the English - in the probable event of a no vote I expect that bitterness to get even worse.

I'm seriously not bitter about England/English people.This year alone I've been to London twice, Manchester once,Leicester once and Newcastle too.Visiting my sister and other relatives/friends.I seriously like England as a country and think it offers a very good alternative to Scotland, in both pace of life, population demographics and outlook on society, becuase I do think for everything that makes us alike, there are things that make us different.None of that will change, we'll still have a love/hate relationship with sport, we'll still buy Warbuttons bread and Boddingtons and you'll still buy Shortbread and Irn Bru.

Scotland will not be damaged beyond repair, and if you think that's a possibility you think very little of Scotland and it's people.

You are, when opinions differ from you you bat them down with comments of "Carry on GI Joe" its very disrespectful.

In the grand scale of things his opinion is worthless when you view the fact that he doesn't live in Scotland and doesnt get a vote, however his opinion is relevant when he explains from a position of experience that manpower numbers explained in the white paper don't add up, it's not scaremongering, it's fact. He comments as follows;

"There is no mention of any naval aviation (yet Scotland would need a primarily naval force), no mention of air-to-air refuelling capability, no Mountain Rescue and no Search & Rescue capability. The White Paper proposals are dangerous and would leave Scotland, the UK and NATO weakened and less capable of dealing with the threats of today and tomorrow. Scotland deserves better"

Also

"As an example of the incoherence of SNP thinking, there are currently six infantry/Guards/Royal Marine units that are Scottish (or Scottish based) plus a further company of Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders. Yet the White Paper commits to only three such units. More bizarre, the SNP commits to reinstating all the Scottish infantry battalions lost in 2006. It simply doesn’t add up. And even if it did, where does this leave the young men who are serving with such distinction in the Royal Regiment of Scotland and made it the regiment which Scotland and all Scots can take such pride in?"

Whether we are in NATO or not these paragraph's are very worrying IMO.

As I said, I skim read that article as I don't really care what he thinks.He's worries about his armed forces being depleted, funding being reduced and potentially some ( not many maybe) deciding they want to join a Scottish force.And anyone hanging their entire argument on what The SNP want is missing the much bigger picture...what if Labour win the 1st Scottish elections post yes? Have they had the balls to announce what their plans are?Do they have a plan B on anything? I think it gross negligence to not have contingency plans in place...it's common knowledge The SNP have contingency plans in case No wins, which is quite correct.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

a poll each or 1 joint poll for 2 totally different audiences? got a link for the stats?

2 years of polling and I still dont know anyone who's ever been polled

What stats you looking for? Read The Times today if you want the poll.

And 3 NO voters changing their minds are unlikely to vote 'undecided'. So 53/47 becomes 50/50

That said I think projections made by pollsters for a YES/NO like this could be hugely wrong because as far as I can see individual voting intentions are not easily defined according to socio-economic or any other parameters or background. How the pollsters actually select their 'representative' sample I just don't know. So the polls could be wildly wrong.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The real shame in the whole referendum is that with the result likely to be edged by only a few points either way, almost half the voting population aren't going to be happy and I'm not completely comfortable that a victory by say 55/45 is sufficient mandate to leave... or stay!

I had a thought on this as it seems to me that whereas a very narrow NO would perhaps be OK (because it implies status quo), a very narrow YES could well be problematic and not very digestible. In the case of a very narrow YES perhaps it would have been appropriate to seek the view of the Scottish diaspora. In an 'advisory' way either to confirm the YES or to say 'think again' - and send the vote back to be re-run.

 

[Val]

As I said, I skim read that article as I don't really care what he thinks.He's worries about his armed forces being depleted, funding being reduced and potentially some ( not many maybe) deciding they want to join a Scottish force.And anyone hanging their entire argument on what The SNP want is missing the much bigger picture...what if Labour win the 1st Scottish elections post yes? Have they had the balls to announce what their plans are?Do they have a plan B on anything? I think it gross negligence to not have contingency plans in place...it's common knowledge The SNP have contingency plans in case No wins, which is quite correct.

A very good point and something I have to admit to not considering.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It's another doomsday scenario, where Scottish independence results in cataclysmic domino affects in Europe,NATO and the entire world.

I don't think we have to worry too much about Scotland being a source of world instability when we have the situation in the Ukraine where NATO is putting together a rapid response force that could be sent into the Ukraine if Putin and Russia continue along their current track. So if you are worried about the impact an independent Scotland would have on the future stability of the world - fret not - Russia with Ukraine and NATO have that particular risk tied up today.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

A very good point and something I have to admit to not considering.

The entire debate is being framed in a very narrow corridor.Does it really matter about military or currency?Does anyone seriously think we'll be decimated by yes?We'll have no money or no soldiers?Doe sthe demand for clarity on answers from Salmond by Darling really progress things?Why does the white paper have to be the reference point for everything?The SNP or Labour or Conservative or Green are not that important.

Everything, everything will work itself out as best as possible.Will it be better than rUK?I don't actually care.I'm not competing with rUk to be better than them, just the same.Will be get into the EU?Probably, but so what?Same applies to NATO.Folk are framing this entire debate in such a narrow perspective it's a crying shame.We're debating (sometimes agressively, but tahts good imo) the rebirth of a nation, one that would want to be a good partner, a responsible neighbour and a contributing society.A nation that wants to take responsibility and accountability for itself.For me, thats awesome.Terrifying,exciting and draining all at the same time and I cannae wait.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Never once thought of Scotland as a weight around anyone's neck nor have I ever seen or heard anyone suggest such a thing

Maybe not where you live but down here I hear it all the time in the context of per head spending - especially as Scots get free prescriptions, university fees etc.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

That's relevant for the English and Welsh as well

Well fortunately Scots are now in a position to do something about it if they want...

It's not Scotland's fault that the rest of us currently can't. I find odd the argument that says that because England and Wales can't have or do something then why should Scotland? Well the thing is - Scotland can - though they prob won't

 

[CMAC]

The entire debate is being framed in a very narrow corridor.Does it really matter about military or currency?Does anyone seriously think we'll be decimated by yes?We'll have no money or no soldiers?Doe sthe demand for clarity on answers from Salmond by Darling really progress things?Why does the white paper have to be the reference point for everything?The SNP or Labour or Conservative or Green are not that important.

Everything, everything will work itself out as best as possible.Will it be better than rUK?I don't actually care.I'm not competing with rUk to be better than them, just the same.Will be get into the EU?Probably, but so what?Same applies to NATO.Folk are framing this entire debate in such a narrow perspective it's a crying shame.We're debating (sometimes agressively, but tahts good imo) the rebirth of a nation, one that would want to be a good partner, a responsible neighbour and a contributing society.A nation that wants to take responsibility and accountability for itself.For me, thats awesome.Terrifying,exciting and draining all at the same time and I cannae wait.

seriously? As we cant get any definitive answers from the instigators lets just say the key things don't matter and it will be all right on the night.

Just a couple of posts previously you were lambasting labour for not having the balls to announce their plans POST (possible) yes.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Well fortunately Scots are now in a position to do something about it if they want...

It's not Scotland's fault that the rest of us currently can't. I find odd the argument that says that because England and Wales can't have or do something then why should Scotland? Well the thing is - Scotland can - though they prob won't

When did anyone say it's Scotland's fault ?

Also when did anyone say that because England and Wales can't do something Scotland also can't ?

 

[Adi2Dassler]

seriously? As we cant get any definitive answers from the instigators lets just say the key things don't matter and it will be all right on the night.

Just a couple of posts previously you were lambasting labour for not having the balls to announce their plans POST (possible) yes.

Seriously.And I wasn't lambasting anyone, I was suggesting that not planning for either outcome is a dereliction of duty.

None of it really matters, the earth will continue to spin and Hibs will continue to be abject *****.

 

[Beezerk]

Well fortunately Scots are now in a position to do something about it if they want...

It's not Scotland's fault that the rest of us currently can't. I find odd the argument that says that because England and Wales can't have or do something then why should Scotland? Well the thing is - Scotland can - though they prob won't

I don't think I'd want to leave a union just because I don't like how the government is run and wealth is distributed.
Let's be brutally honest here, most politicians are in it for themselves no matter what party they show allegiance to. You'd still get shafted by a new Scottish parliament if it comes to pass, it's the way of the world.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The entire debate is being framed in a very narrow corridor.Does it really matter about military or currency?Does anyone seriously think we'll be decimated by yes?We'll have no money or no soldiers?Doe sthe demand for clarity on answers from Salmond by Darling really progress things?Why does the white paper have to be the reference point for everything?The SNP or Labour or Conservative or Green are not that important.

Everything, everything will work itself out as best as possible.Will it be better than rUK?I don't actually care.I'm not competing with rUk to be better than them, just the same.Will be get into the EU?Probably, but so what?Same applies to NATO.Folk are framing this entire debate in such a narrow perspective it's a crying shame.We're debating (sometimes agressively, but tahts good imo) the rebirth of a nation, one that would want to be a good partner, a responsible neighbour and a contributing society.A nation that wants to take responsibility and accountability for itself.For me, thats awesome.Terrifying,exciting and draining all at the same time and I cannae wait.

My inclining might still be to vote NO if I had a vote but I like this framing of what it's all about. As Darling said just yesterday in an interview I watched on BBC Scotland 2014 - an independent Scotland would be a successful country. And that is the point. Maybe not as successful as rUK - maybe more successful. Maybe Scotland would crash into a major recession - maybe it wouldn't. If it did then in time it would work it's way out of that recession. Scotland will become the country it wants to be - under governments it chooses of whatever flavour.

 

[Slab]

I had a thought on this as it seems to me that whereas a very narrow NO would perhaps be OK (because it implies status quo), a very narrow YES could well be problematic and not very digestible. In the case of a very narrow YES perhaps it would have been appropriate to seek the view of the Scottish diaspora. In an 'advisory' way either to confirm the YES or to say 'think again' - and send the vote back to be re-run.

Agree I think there's a serious risk a No vote will imply a backing for the status quo when it could also be a simple vote against the only choice on offer, but that's the risk of a single question referendum

I see what your saying about a re-run but I fear it would just roll on for decades until political or social changes swing a sufficient majority one way or t'other

As one of the Scottish diaspora (only gone 30 months & who'll return sooner rather than later) I'd love to be part of the decision but I've had to accept that if I get it then a 70 year old who emigrated from Carnoustie to Canada 65 years ago would also get a say and I don't really want that (whatever the cut off it will always disadvantage someone)



And as a general comment to save a separate post:

I still see far too many side issues being cited in order to justify a vote for either side. Does anyone really believe that Scotland will descend to third world status in the event of a Yes, or be invaded, or have no currency in our wallets etc etc?

Independence will be a tough road and might even cost a shilling or two more but the choice of self determination has to be separated from the posturing and scaremongering (from both sides)

In truth we don't actually need definitive answers right now to every possible post yes scenario for defense, currency, health, education etc. This is far bigger than any of these things

I see and read about political & other figures round the world saying don't do it, don't go... but in truth every one of them are looking from the outside & looking out for their own interests and what Scottish independence might mean to their model of the world

Only the people in Scotland are looking from the inside out (& not even all of them) so its no surprise many on here cant grasp what attraction Independence holds

 

[Foxholer]

I don't think I'd want to leave a union just because I don't like how the government is run and wealth is distributed.
Let's be brutally honest here, most politicians are in it for themselves no matter what party they show allegiance to. You'd still get shafted by a new Scottish parliament if it comes to pass, it's the way of the world.

But that's where Tony Benn's Five Questions of Power/Democracy truly apply!

And currently, none of them get answered well for Scots by Westminster!