Scotland Debate

[CheltenhamHacker]

If I were living in the rUK I would be very anxious to see the Governments contingency plans, post YES. Why are they keeping their residents in the dark?

Because we have absolutely no say in the matter, as Adi points out, so us knowing plans for what may or may not happen is pointless. I also imagine, should there be a Yes or a No, how the UK/rUK copes will form a big part of the general election, so why reveal both hands early, when only one will be required.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

That hasn't really answered both the questions and you have made your own conclusions of other people's posts.

But I'm going to guess - the answer to both is "no one"

OK - so I am mistaken. You are telling me that at no point has anyone mentioned that, let's say, the North East of England feels the same about their representation at Westminster; that nobody has suggested that folks in the North West feel the same about a government run by 'Eton Boys' with little understanding of the real issues facing the NW. That nobody has complained that HS2 will do nothing for Newcastle or Liverpool; that billions spent on London Crossrail does nothing for the North of England or Wales when a proper trans-pennine rail link would have huge economic benefits; that the Tories only care about marginal seats Birmingham south. That there are many voters in England and Wales just as concerned as Scots voters about privatisation of the NHS and such as the Bedroom tax.

If nobody has mentioned any of the above as issues that many in England and Wales also have and that Scots shouldn't feel that somehow they particularly feel these issues - then I am mistaken.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

OK - so I am mistaken. You are telling me that at no point has anyone mentioned that, let's say, the North East of England feels the same about their representation at Westminster; that nobody has suggested that folks in the North West feel the same about a government run by 'Eton Boys' with little understanding of the real issues facing the NW. That nobody has complained that HS2 will do nothing for Newcastle or Liverpool; that billions spent on London Crossrail does nothing for the North of England or Wales when a proper trans-pennine rail link would have huge economic benefits; that the Tories only care about marginal seats Birmingham south. That there are many voters in England and Wales just as concerned as Scots voters about privatisation of the NHS and such as the Bedroom tax.

If nobody has mentioned any of the above as issues that many in England and Wales also have and that Scots shouldn't feel that somehow they particularly feel these issues - then I am mistaken.

Ok so I'm saying any of that where do people say

"it's Scotland's Fault"

And "because England and Wales can't do anything Scotland can't"

Which was both the questions I asked

People being concerned about the same issues doesn't mean that they are saying Scotland can't have their choice ?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If their is a YES vote people need to embrace it, all the parties and all the people and make it work, it has to work as their is no turning back.

I think that after a NO vote many Scots will find life after rejecting independence rather 'odd'. So much of the Scottish character and of the cultural landscape of Scotland is built around the differences Scots perceive between themselves and those of the rest of UK, and the accumulation of a century or so of celebrating the differences and looking forward to the day when Scotland will be 'a nation again'. Well a start, and at a relatively trivial level. you might as well dump singing Flower of Scotland; Scots Wa Hae etc - as all will be obsolete.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Ok so I'm saying any of that where do people say

"it's Scotland's Fault"

And "because England and Wales can't do anything Scotland can't"

Which was both the questions I asked

People being concerned about the same issues doesn't mean that they are saying Scotland can't have their choice ?

What I said about "it's Scotland's Fault" is that it's not Scotland's fault that other areas of the UK don't have self-determination as an option. Scotland is fortunate to be in the position that it has a choice - fortnight on Thursday.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I think that after a NO vote many Scots will find life after rejecting independence rather 'odd'. So much of the Scottish character and of the cultural landscape of Scotland is built around the differences Scots perceive between themselves and those of the rest of UK, and the accumulation of a century or so of celebrating the differences and looking forward to the day when Scotland will be 'a nation again'. Well a start, and at a relatively trivial level. you might as well dump singing Flower of Scotland; Scots Wa Hae etc - as all will be obsolete.

I expect that after a NO vote that things will just carry on as we do now - working together

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And now you're being a bit selective. This isn't a general election, we can't change our minds in five years. This is a one way trip into the unknown so while your analogy isn't entirely spurious neither is it a true comparison.

...with the flip side being.

Scotland won't get this choice again for a generation - or more - and maybe with a bit of work by Westminster never again according to the Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...le-scotlands-future-once-and-for-all.24865471

So vote NO and you are lashing yourself to the UK whatever that might bring for as long as a piece of string - and what that will look like ten years down the line is likewise completely unknown

 

[CMAC]

I expect that after a NO vote that things will just carry on as we do now - working together

agreed!

Possibly the main party will double their efforts and campaign and maybe, just maybe Devo Max might come back on the table for the near future especially if the vote is as close as the polls say it will be- surely the Govt has to listen to that and respond accordingly.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I expect that after a NO vote that things will just carry on as we do now - working together

I'm not talking about relationships between Scotland and England - and on that I agree with you.

I'm talking about the perception Scots will hold of themselves and of what it means to be Scottish. Non-Scots in Scotland will just get on with life.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm not talking about relationships between Scotland and England - and on that I agree with you.

I'm talking about the perception Scots will hold of themselves and of what it means to be Scottish. Non-Scots in Scotland will just get on with life.

I expect the Scottish will feel how they do right now - Scottish and all the good that embraces

The Scottish nationality and history won't change - no reason for it to

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

agreed!

Possibly the main party will double their efforts and campaign and maybe, just maybe Devo Max might come back on the table for the near future especially if the vote is as close as the polls say it will be- surely the Govt has to listen to that and respond accordingly.

Why should they listen to Scotland over calls for Devo Max and for fulfilment of promises made. Westminster and the Tories have a much larger and more important constituency than Scotland that they have to placate and respond to. And if that constituency does not want further powers devolved, or if it wants such as a cut in the Barnett formula, then Westminster will be as likely to listen to that voice as the Scottish one.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Why should they listen to Scotland over calls for Devo Max and for fulfilment of promises made. Westminster and the Tories have a much larger and more important constituency than Scotland that they have to placate and respond to. And if that constituency does not want further powers devolved, or if it wants such as a cut in the Barnett formula, then Westminster will be as likely to listen to that voice as the Scottish one.

I would hope that after any vote or election that the Tories or any party would look after the interests of the whole country that they govern and if that includes Scotland then I hope their needs are looked after also

 

[Foxholer]

...with the flip side being.

Scotland won't get this choice again for a generation - or more - and maybe with a bit of work by Westminster never again according to the Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...le-scotlands-future-once-and-for-all.24865471

So vote NO and you are lashing yourself to the UK whatever that might bring for as long as a piece of string - and what that will look like ten years down the line is likewise completely unknown

Er. Just where in the article did he say that? Or anything like the 'quote' in the headline?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I expect the Scottish will feel how they do right now

Not so sure. By saying you 'expect' them to feel the same you clearly have some insight into how Scots feel about their being Scottish and what that means? But you may be right - maybe Scots won't feel any different about themselves.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Er. Just where in the article did he say that? Or anything like the 'quote' in the headline?

SCOTTISH Secretary Alistair Carmichael has said maintaining a strong UK Government presence north of the Border in the event of a No vote in September would mean the independence question would never be put again and the issue of Scotland's future would be settled "once and for all".

 

[FairwayDodger]

...with the flip side being.

Scotland won't get this choice again for a generation - or more - and maybe with a bit of work by Westminster never again according to the Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...le-scotlands-future-once-and-for-all.24865471

So vote NO and you are lashing yourself to the UK whatever that might bring for as long as a piece of string - and what that will look like ten years down the line is likewise completely unknown

Except change within the UK will be a gradual evolution whereas independent Scotland is and all or nothing big bang. So, again, not comparing like with like.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Not so sure. By saying you 'expect' them to feel the same you clearly have some insight into how Scots feel about their being Scottish and what that means? But you may be right - maybe Scots won't feel any different about themselves.

Why would they suddenly start to feel different about being Scottish ? Or feel differently ?

How a country is governed should never change how anyone feels about themselves or their nationality

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Except change within the UK will be a gradual evolution whereas independent Scotland is and all or nothing big bang. So, again, not comparing like with like.

So a vote in 2016 to leave the EU won't be 'big bang'?

 

[CMAC]

Why should they listen to Scotland over calls for Devo Max and for fulfilment of promises made. Westminster and the Tories have a much larger and more important constituency than Scotland that they have to placate and respond to. And if that constituency does not want further powers devolved, or if it wants such as a cut in the Barnett formula, then Westminster will be as likely to listen to that voice as the Scottish one.

If the polls are correct and its as close as they say 47%-53% with 80% turnout then it might make them sit up and listen, at the very least have dialogue again.

If its a NO landslide you can forget anything decent being put back on the agenda.

 

[FairwayDodger]

So a vote in 2016 to leave the EU won't be 'big bang'?

Jeez. Not to the same extent and purely hypothetical anyway at this point. Let it go man, let it go.