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Scotland Debate
- Thread starter Doon frae Troon
- Start date
Foxholer
Blackballed
That's a view of an extremely well qualified man whose focus for his recent career has been to make himself virtually redundant!
And while his argument is eloquent, as a democracy his vote counts only as much as anyone else's.
I actually detest military folk who get too involved with political matters. It's really not an area they should get particularly involved in imo!
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Yougov poll for The Times and The Sun: No 53%, Yes 47% Now that is pretty much neck and neck. And as this is a binary vote there could be huge variances from the polls - with only 3 voters in 100 changing their minds from No to Yes for it to be 50:50
a poll each or 1 joint poll for 2 totally different audiences? got a link for the stats?
2 years of polling and I still dont know anyone who's ever been polled
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
The real shame in the whole referendum is that with the result likely to be edged by only a few points either way, almost half the voting population aren't going to be happy and I'm not completely comfortable that a victory by say 55/45 is sufficient mandate to leave... or stay!
I too have a mistrust of military men who advise in the political arena. However, he does make some excellent points and raise some very pointed questions. And some of those questions make it very clear that the Whitepaper is just plain naive in the area of defence, assuming NATO is the way forward for Scotland.
Maybe, just maybe, he's the right person asking the right questions about defence.
Beezerk
Money List Winner
And the bookies have it about 1/4 for the No vote and 3/1 for the Yes.
Work that out then if the polls put it so close.
Foxholer
Blackballed
A White Paper covering the way a country is likely to be run - without venturing into Party Politics - which is what that document is, is bound to be 'naive' in places - I'd call it 'shallow'.
He might be the right (sort of) person to implement the final policy. But only after having had his overall budget set in concrete! A General (or whatever) will always see a good reason to spend more money on Defence. The key to affordable Defence is making the optimum Defence with the resources available - another key skill for top level Military folk!
The whole point of the White Paper is that, as a small country, Scotland's Defence Needs and Role will change. And that's on top of the issue of Faslane etc.
Well most of the Bookies customers are neither Scottish, nor Voting - and Scottish Bookies, with Voting punters, would have to follow the majority - the non-Scottish, non-Voting ones anyway!
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Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
Does this person have a vote?my skim reading of it suggests not.So he can comment all he likes, but the jakey round the corner in Leith Walk who's just registered his vote is more important and relevant than this joker.
Carry on GI Joe, and fwiw, I hope we don't get into NATO
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
It is quite funny that when someone posts someone negative towards a yes vote with some actual facts and someone from a position who actually provides a valuable insight - ie defence which is one of the points in the white paper - you just dismiss it out of hand.
I have no doubt that if he was backing the yes campaign you would embrace him with open arms
His comments are very very relevant to the future if a yes vote happened.
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
Why are you showing such a dislike to the UK military?
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
I honestly don't care what anyone who doesn't have a vote thinks about this referendum, good or bad...although the general mood outside Scotland seems to be vote no, which make me wonder why as we're generally seen as weight around the neck of England, or at least we used to be until folk started educating themselves out of their own ignorance.
It's another doomsday scenario, where Scottish independence results in cataclysmic domino affects in Europe,NATO and the entire world.Anyone who thinks that an independent Scotland would pose some kind of threat to security live sin a parallel universe to me.I expect Scotland to meet its obligations in the correct manner as does any right thinking person.We just want the opportunity to make the decisions ourselves, and I think folk like the lad we're discussing is more concerned about rUks lack of ability to continue down the road they're heading without the facilities,finance and men Scotland provides.
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
I didn't think I was.I respect the jobs the forces do, one I wouldn't be prepared to do myself.I'm calling him irrelevant to this debate ( unless he has a vote?) He's a joker, an agent of fear, perpetuating this line that Scottish independence would result in a domino affect of failure, well I call bullshit.
Scotland will meet its obligations, they might not be in line with what Westminster and the MoD would like, but tough luck on that one, as it would appear to me that Scottish citizens are realizing there are important issues other than the military that need out tax £.
FairwayDodger
Money List Winner
I didn't know this, but learned yesterday that UK citizens who have lived abroad for less than 15 years are still eligible to vote in general elections.
I know a Scottish doctor currently working in Australia on a 2 year temporary visa but coming back next year who would very much like a vote and (while I don't think long term absentees like SILH should get a vote) I do tend to agree with her that she should be entitled to do so.
It's not as black and white as some would make out and very wrong to be so disparaging of those who have legitimate concerns and useful insight just because they have been disenfranchised for this particular vote.
I know a Scottish doctor currently working in Australia on a 2 year temporary visa but coming back next year who would very much like a vote and (while I don't think long term absentees like SILH should get a vote) I do tend to agree with her that she should be entitled to do so.
It's not as black and white as some would make out and very wrong to be so disparaging of those who have legitimate concerns and useful insight just because they have been disenfranchised for this particular vote.
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Deleted member 15344
Guest
Never once thought of Scotland as a weight around anyone's neck nor have I ever seen or heard anyone suggest such a thing
Or is that making judgments from a small percentage
The worst thing this referendum has done has ruined a wonderful relationship between the two countries - all ruined by bitterness and lots of nastiness
One of the heads of NATO has pretty much ripped apart the white paper in terms of defence - you may not care but that is someone actually in the position to comment - if the defence area of the white paper ( which I mentioned months ago ) is such a mess with no clear thought wonder what that says about the rest.
You expect Scotland to meet it's requirements in regards defence - well their is a high ranking officer in the know who states that you won't be able too. I wonder who is in a better position to judge.
Or is that making judgments from a small percentage
The worst thing this referendum has done has ruined a wonderful relationship between the two countries - all ruined by bitterness and lots of nastiness
One of the heads of NATO has pretty much ripped apart the white paper in terms of defence - you may not care but that is someone actually in the position to comment - if the defence area of the white paper ( which I mentioned months ago ) is such a mess with no clear thought wonder what that says about the rest.
You expect Scotland to meet it's requirements in regards defence - well their is a high ranking officer in the know who states that you won't be able too. I wonder who is in a better position to judge.
Beezerk
Money List Winner
I don't know how many English folk you've spoken to about the referendum but methinks you're judgement is way off the mark. I'd suggest the regular English person doesn't really have any idea about the financial implications Scotland have being in the UK, they just think it's a pretty place to go on holiday.
I stand by what I touched upon the other day, Scottish bitterness towards the English is what seems to be driving some Yes votes.
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
Yes there does seem to be more than a bit of a sea change there.
The stark reality of facts rather than what they thought were facts.
Those taking umbridge about the defense comments really cannot picture a Scots Defense Force and a rUK Defense Force.
rUk will have to find a lot of money if they want the rUK Force to be on a par with a UK Force.
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
As I repeat, whatever he says makes no difference, just like yours, his opinion counts for nowt.
And I keep hearing about this bitterness and nastiness.Seriously? Darling and Carmichael mention it loads, as does Murphy.Robust debate and the capacity to reduce each others point of view is what I see.Grow a set and get tore in, or sit this one out and go talk about over paid footballers.
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
Not against the English, except for a few sad cases, more against Westminster/London and the distribution of wealth
