Val
Ryder Cup Winner
I don't disagree merely pointing out they are detached from it also.
Scotland Debate
- Thread starter Doon frae Troon
- Start date
I don't disagree merely pointing out they are detached from it also.
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
Heads Up.
Just watched Janet Street-Porter's.... Scotland 2014 programme called 'Janet's Scotland'.
Very good watch and I would say compulsive viewing for any rUK resident and all who post on hear.
It probably is the nearest thing to the reality of how the Scottish people think about the process and the difficult decisions they have to make.
The Borders Tweed producer summed it up perfectly when he said it was 'Threats v Bluster and I don't like either of them'
You will have to find it on iplayer as it went out a couple of days ago.
Just watched Janet Street-Porter's.... Scotland 2014 programme called 'Janet's Scotland'.
Very good watch and I would say compulsive viewing for any rUK resident and all who post on hear.
It probably is the nearest thing to the reality of how the Scottish people think about the process and the difficult decisions they have to make.
The Borders Tweed producer summed it up perfectly when he said it was 'Threats v Bluster and I don't like either of them'
You will have to find it on iplayer as it went out a couple of days ago.
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Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27764295
Hope the 'trendies' people can link it from this.
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
Enjoyed this read from fellow Hibernian foot soldier and Leither Irvine Welsh
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/i...-hope-to-the-left-across-britain-9559111.html
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/i...-hope-to-the-left-across-britain-9559111.html
FairwayDodger
Money List Winner
Ach, I'm not a fan but he was going well and made some decent points. Right up until he nailed his colours to the mast and declared the referendum as hope vs fear. Tired, lazy rhetoric... designed to stifle the debate he claims to be so proud of by belittling those of us who are against independence.
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
I've yet to see much + for No (thanks) except adding the word thanks to their badges.Whenever we see Salmond/Sturgeon on the TV it's the land of milk and honey, with Darling/Carmichael is doom and gloom for iScotland.
FairwayDodger
Money List Winner
The whole debate has been framed in that way, and it's a real shame. I'm voting "No" and I made my mind up for social/cultural/philosophical rather than economic reasons. Fear doesn't come into it. I'd like to see Better Together exploring some of those issues but, I guess, they feel the need to tackle the "streets paved with gold" claims head on. Plus, in fairness, they're somewhat more "ethereal"....... people coming together rather than pushing apart etc etc....
Lots of it comes down to that stupid poll early on that suggested just £500 better off either way would sway most voters.
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
Would you mind expanding on this? Appreciate you might not want to, but I'm honestly keen to hear what you mean by this from a unionist point of view.I'm happy to give my version from a nationalist point of view if you like?
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
Like many I got my 'better together' leaflet through the door this week.
It did not send me jumping oot of my seat waving a Union Jack.
On one hand they are telling us that we receive per head 10% more money than rUK then they say that we should stick with the big guys who represent 31 million UK taxpayers.
Well Scotland has a higher percentage of folk in work paying tax than rUK so I'm not sure that is a winner.
It did not send me jumping oot of my seat waving a Union Jack.
On one hand they are telling us that we receive per head 10% more money than rUK then they say that we should stick with the big guys who represent 31 million UK taxpayers.
Well Scotland has a higher percentage of folk in work paying tax than rUK so I'm not sure that is a winner.
FairwayDodger
Money List Winner
I'll give it a bash later on when I've got a bit more time to think how to express it. The one time I got cornered by a "Yes" campaigner and tried to explain my point of view he looked at me like I was mad.
JamPal
Assistant Pro
I'll give it a bash later on when I've got a bit more time to think how to express it. The one time I got cornered by a "Yes" campaigner and tried to explain my point of view he looked at me like I was mad.
Perhaps you are.
I am also a NO, but live in England so have no say in the future of the UK. Which seems a shame, as I feel it will effect England and Wales too. That said, I do understand that this is about Scotland and for Scotland and so the Scots must decide.
I would urge the independence voters to ignore much of the poor rhetoric coming from Westminster, it does the UK campaign no favours. The best reason to stay together is quite simple, strength in numbers. There are things all of us dislike about Westminster, but to just leave would be to throw the baby out with the bath water. I wish I could vote as I want you to stay, we are better together. the UK needs Scotland and Scotland is stronger standing beside the English and Welsh, rather than against us. And if you don't think voting yes is going against England and Wales, you need to stop and think how it will feel to us.
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
culture: clearly Scotland and England share a large chunk of their cultures, with both contributing to the various scenes that make up what can probably be put under the umbrella of 'Britishness', something that can never change ( I mean Britain will never cease, The UK just might) Whether it's the pop music scene, art, dance or our terrific shared history of literature, a yes vote won't change that for the worse, why would it?But within all of the things I've mentioned, there are distinct Scottish voices that make our own wee slice of 'Britishness' very Scottish,whether thats the afore mentioned Irvine Welsh or Hugh Mcilvanney or Arthur Conan Doyle or Franz Ferdinand,The Proclaimers or The Sensational Alex Harvey, or Billy Connolly or Frankie Boyle or Jerry Sadowitz...there is a distinct Scottish popular culture that I genuinely believe is unique and seperate to that of England.Some of the above probably support(ed) the union, but it can't be avoided their Scottishness.To our shame Scotland also has a culture of domestic violence,alcoholism,lung cancer and low life expectancy.There are social issues in Scotland that need addressed, possibly moreso than anywhere else in the UK currently.The standard one of adult men living longer in The Gazza Strip than is Possil highlights this.But we also have a culture of innovation,invention and armed service...in some shameful parts of our shared cultural history but also in life affirming moments of wonder I could never understand and hope never to see.Like other parts of The UK, Scotland has a proud history of manual work, ,of ship building,farming and finance.
So I agree there have been many terrific,historical things achieved by the UK, but to my eye, most of the good has been undone in the past 30 years by a new cultural revolution.A cultural revolution seeded in Westminster where career politicians with zero knowledge of real life having their palms greased by corporations to allow tax evasion, of boom and bust economies then loading blame onto sections of society unable to defend themselves, whether they're foreign,disabled,unemployed or whatever.A culture has been created that I'm sure most folk on here disagree with,a culture we'd all like to change.But the sad fact is it's not possible to change the culture of Westminster/career politicians/The city of London and the greed.it's too deeply ingrained now.The UK is pretty much done.But I do think there is a chance for Scotlands culture to be reinvigorated.We've seen in the past year an incredible revival in participation in the political scene, from both sides.This is a pointer to the future what ever way we vote I think, but I also think it shows there is a hunger for the culture of Scotland to find itself as a unique voice, not just part of UK popular culture.It's also the chance for England to look on and say, aye, gimme a bit of that.
I was staying in a house in Boat of Garten last week and saw this poster in the toilet...tongue in cheek, but quite nice.
So I agree there have been many terrific,historical things achieved by the UK, but to my eye, most of the good has been undone in the past 30 years by a new cultural revolution.A cultural revolution seeded in Westminster where career politicians with zero knowledge of real life having their palms greased by corporations to allow tax evasion, of boom and bust economies then loading blame onto sections of society unable to defend themselves, whether they're foreign,disabled,unemployed or whatever.A culture has been created that I'm sure most folk on here disagree with,a culture we'd all like to change.But the sad fact is it's not possible to change the culture of Westminster/career politicians/The city of London and the greed.it's too deeply ingrained now.The UK is pretty much done.But I do think there is a chance for Scotlands culture to be reinvigorated.We've seen in the past year an incredible revival in participation in the political scene, from both sides.This is a pointer to the future what ever way we vote I think, but I also think it shows there is a hunger for the culture of Scotland to find itself as a unique voice, not just part of UK popular culture.It's also the chance for England to look on and say, aye, gimme a bit of that.
I was staying in a house in Boat of Garten last week and saw this poster in the toilet...tongue in cheek, but quite nice.
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
I read something recently showing the top 15 performing economies...out of that 15, I think 12 had populations on par with Scotland.Strength in numbers is a myth, being an agile diverse economy is far superior...think Singapore/Finland/Iceland...I try and find the atricle.
JamPal
Assistant Pro
Strength in numbers wasn't a myth when the UK bailed out Bank of Scotland. but ok, perhaps overall that argument doesn't always stand up.
It's the desire to isolate that I find sad. The rest of the world is struggling to bring ourselves closer to each other. it all seems such a retrograde step.
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
Do you mean RBS? bank bail outs rely on the country in question taking the share of bad debt accumulated in their country...the city of london was responsible for the majority of that debt.Google fortis dexia for a better explanation.
And we don't want to isolate, we want to be good international partners, just on our own terms and not those thrust upon us by govts we don't elect.
C
c1973
Guest
And here is a great example of one of the most annoying things in this debate. Who is this WE that you speak of? You do not speak for all Scots, in fact going by polls it's doubtful you speak for anything approaching the majority.
Not so much a dig at yourself btw (well, just a little bit perhaps) but more at the yes campaign spokespersons in general who are the worst culprits of the whole 'we' speak for everyone brigade. They don't and they never have!
It infraction bugs me no end when I hear some politician, living high on the hog, coming out with 'the people of Scotland want/don't need/don't believe/see through that' etc etbloodycetra patter. You don't speak for us all, you never have and you never infraction will!!
Rant over. Apologies.
Adi2Dassler
Journeyman Pro
And here is a great example of one of the most annoying things in this debate. Who is this WE that you speak of? You do not speak for all Scots, in fact going by polls it's doubtful you speak for anything approaching the majority.
Not so much a dig at yourself btw (well, just a little bit perhaps) but more at the yes campaign spokespersons in general who are the worst culprits of the whole 'we' speak for everyone brigade. They don't and they never have!
It infraction bugs me no end when I hear some politician, living high on the hog, coming out with 'the people of Scotland want/don't need/don't believe/see through that' etc etbloodycetra patter. You don't speak for us all, you never have and you never infraction will!!
Rant over. Apologies.
Point me in the direction where I've ever claimed to speak for all Scots please.I thought it was pretty obvious my point of view is one of speaking from those seeking a yes victory in September.
As for polls, I never ever pay any heed as they're skewed.The ones prior to the last Scottish elections are a case in point.
rant on btw, I find it entertaining.
Foxholer
Blackballed
And here is a great example of one of the most annoying things in this debate. Who is this WE that you speak of? You do not speak for all Scots, in fact going by polls it's doubtful you speak for anything approaching the majority.
Not so much a dig at yourself btw (well, just a little bit perhaps) but more at the yes campaign spokespersons in general who are the worst culprits of the whole 'we' speak for everyone brigade. They don't and they never have!
It infraction bugs me no end when I hear some politician, living high on the hog, coming out with 'the people of Scotland want/don't need/don't believe/see through that' etc etbloodycetra patter. You don't speak for us all, you never have and you never infraction will!!
Rant over. Apologies.
I don't think you ever need to apologise for abusing politicians for their arrogant approach to the righteous nature of their own views - or at least voices!
It's part of the nature of the 'beast'!
They are, after all, simply salesmen/women (if that's not too much of a slight on proper Salesmen/Women) with, generally, a pretty poor product to sell - whichever party/side! So they have to give the impression that their view is the view of the majority, which it normally isn't, in the hope that the gullible will buy into the 'if so many others think that way, then it must be right' myth!
CheltenhamHacker
Journeyman Pro
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
There is only ONE Tory MP in Scotland so to say 'we don't elect' is correct.
