Scotland Debate

[NWJocko]

There is only ONE Tory MP in Scotland so to say 'we don't elect' is correct.

After some good posts on here today from adidassler and FD you come back with you're usual tosh.

The electorate as a whole elects government so you are not correct, unless Scotland are already discounted from the UK electorate? There are huge areas of England and Wales that have never, and will never, be Tory.

How did you feel in the New Labour years? That you had elected?

 

[Val]

There is only ONE Tory MP in Scotland so to say 'we don't elect' is correct.

That's what a democracy is, I didn't vote SNP but I'm stuck with them in the Scottish Parliament.

 

[SocketRocket]

After some good posts on here today from adidassler and FD you come back with you're usual tosh.

The electorate as a whole elects government so you are not correct, unless Scotland are already discounted from the UK electorate? There are huge areas of England and Wales that have never, and will never, be Tory.

How did you feel in the New Labour years? That you had elected?

Here Here. Good point!

This rubbish saying we have a government we didnt elect is twisting facts. I had a labour Government I didnt elect for around 13 years but never made such a stupid comment as D F T made. You get the government you deserve.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

I'll never get the govt I vote for because I vote Green.That's my choice.

But there is a grain of truth in the opinion that Scotlands voting pattern makes no difference to who runs Westminster,to the extent that whenever Labour win a GE, the Scottish vote is a bonus, not a decider and when the conservatives win, especially since the 80's, they're not very well supported .

But maybe thats the fault of first past the post instead of PR.

The fact is Scotland doesn't vote Conservative..neither does North England, but I'm afraid North England don't have the option of independence.

 

[SocketRocket]

I'll never get the govt I vote for because I vote Green.That's my choice.

But there is a grain of truth in the opinion that Scotlands voting pattern makes no difference to who runs Westminster,to the extent that whenever Labour win a GE, the Scottish vote is a bonus, not a decider and when the conservatives win, especially since the 80's, they're not very well supported .

But maybe thats the fault of first past the post instead of PR.

The fact is Scotland doesn't vote Conservative..neither does North England, but I'm afraid North England don't have the option of independence.

Many people vote conservative in the North of England. The Labour vote in Scotland is very important to returning a Labour Government as without them the Conservatives would be in a much stronger position.

Still confuses me as to why anyone would want a Labour Government after the mess they leave behind every time they are in power!

 

[NWJocko]

I'll never get the govt I vote for because I vote Green.That's my choice.

But there is a grain of truth in the opinion that Scotlands voting pattern makes no difference to who runs Westminster,to the extent that whenever Labour win a GE, the Scottish vote is a bonus, not a decider and when the conservatives win, especially since the 80's, they're not very well supported .

But maybe thats the fault of first past the post instead of PR.

The fact is Scotland doesn't vote Conservative..neither does North England, but I'm afraid North England don't have the option of independence.

A alternative view would be that, rather than a "bonus", the Labour votes in Scotland are a mainstay of the Labour share of the vote across the UK electorate. If the vote was more evenly distributed across Tory and Labour in Scotland there could well have been a majority Tory government now.

Would the Scottish then feel that they had elected?

Edit, I agree PR would be preferable.......

 

[CMAC]

someone mentioned tonight the Pope has come out in favour of a NO vote

 

[Doon frae Troon]

The Labour vote in Scotland is very important to returning a Labour Government as without them the Conservatives would be in a much stronger position.

Just reflect about that for a few minutes.
Perhaps it would help if you identified who is in control of the Scottish government.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Many people vote conservative in the North of England. The Labour vote in Scotland is very important to returning a Labour Government as without them the Conservatives would be in a much stronger position.

Still confuses me as to why anyone would want a Labour Government after the mess they leave behind every time they are in power!

A alternative view would be that, rather than a "bonus", the Labour votes in Scotland are a mainstay of the Labour share of the vote across the UK electorate. If the vote was more evenly distributed across Tory and Labour in Scotland there could well have been a majority Tory government now.

Would the Scottish then feel that they had elected?

Edit, I agree PR would be preferable.......

We might be talking at cross purposes here.The fact is that if you remove the Scottish vote from pretty much every GE post WWII the party that won still won.Labour would still win ( they'd have less of a majority) Conservatives would still win.That would probably change under PR ( look at the more democratic Holyrood for Conservative representation) but right now, the Scottish vote is irrelevant at Westminster.

You could take it a step further and say the North of England vote is also irrelevant as the south east of England generally gets the govt they vote for.

someone mentioned tonight the Pope has come out in favour of a NO vote

Recently we've had American President,Chinese President,The Pope and JK Rowling all come out in favour of NO.Only one of those peoples opinion counts...unless you take the opinion of leaders of the country renowned for human rights abuse, or the leader of the country who operates rendition or Guantanamo Bay or even the leader of a cult responsible for child abuse world wide as valid in this historic decision.

JKR deserves to be listened to, she lives here, has had a pretty significant role in turning young people onto books and she contributes greatly to Scottish society.The rest can do one.

 

[IanG]

Recently we've had American President,Chinese President,The Pope and JK Rowling all come out in favour of NO.Only one of those peoples opinion counts...unless you take the opinion of leaders of the country renowned for human rights abuse, or the leader of the country who operates rendition or Guantanamo Bay or even the leader of a cult responsible for child abuse world wide as valid in this historic decision.

JKR deserves to be listened to, she lives here, has had a pretty significant role in turning young people onto books and she contributes greatly to Scottish society.The rest can do one.

and that is something both the yes and no voters can agree on

 

[c1973]

Point me in the direction where I've ever claimed to speak for all Scots please.I thought it was pretty obvious my point of view is one of speaking from those seeking a yes victory in September.

As for polls, I never ever pay any heed as they're skewed.The ones prior to the last Scottish elections are a case in point.

rant on btw, I find it entertaining.

The bit where you said 'WE don't elect' defeats that argument tbh.

On that point, it is a misleading argument at best, duplicitous at worst and is trotted out by the yes campaign all the time.
The electorate elect an MP for their constituency and not a government (as I'm sure you're aware, you don't strike me as being daft). The political parties form the government after MPs have been elected. Scotland got the representation its electorate voted for.




On a side note. Is it just me that finds it difficult to understand why some people are still undecided? It seems like both sides have been campaigning, spinning and lying for years now; surely folks have heard enough to make a decision by now? I mean, you could be voting no, mind made up and then hear one thing that changes your mind. No problem. But to not know either way at this late stage indicates (to me) an inability to process information available and decide; meaning the decision could be made on a whim.

It's kind of worrying that the undecided actually have a say at this point.

 

[CMAC]

We might be talking at cross purposes here.The fact is that if you remove the Scottish vote from pretty much every GE post WWII the party that won still won.Labour would still win ( they'd have less of a majority) Conservatives would still win.That would probably change under PR ( look at the more democratic Holyrood for Conservative representation) but right now, the Scottish vote is irrelevant at Westminster.

You could take it a step further and say the North of England vote is also irrelevant as the south east of England generally gets the govt they vote for.



Recently we've had American President,Chinese President,The Pope and JK Rowling all come out in favour of NO.Only one of those peoples opinion counts...unless you take the opinion of leaders of the country renowned for human rights abuse, or the leader of the country who operates rendition or Guantanamo Bay or even the leader of a cult responsible for child abuse world wide as valid in this historic decision.

JKR deserves to be listened to, she lives here, has had a pretty significant role in turning young people onto books and she contributes greatly to Scottish society.The rest can do one.

influence counts

 

[Adi2Dassler]

The bit where you said 'WE don't elect' defeats that argument tbh.

On that point, it is a misleading argument at best, duplicitous at worst and is trotted out by the yes campaign all the time.
The electorate elect an MP for their constituency and not a government (as I'm sure you're aware, you don't strike me as being daft). The political parties form the government after MPs have been elected. Scotland got the representation its electorate voted for.




On a side note. Is it just me that finds it difficult to understand why some people are still undecided? It seems like both sides have been campaigning, spinning and lying for years now; surely folks have heard enough to make a decision by now? I mean, you could be voting no, mind made up and then hear one thing that changes your mind. No problem. But to not know either way at this late stage indicates (to me) an inability to process information available and decide; meaning the decision could be made on a whim.

It's kind of worrying that the undecided actually have a say at this point.

That's two different strands being cross talked so apologies for that.I stand by both claims, though.

The 'we' regarding the referendum I use is specifically the opinion from a yes perspective
The 'we' regarding GE's is also correct is it not?The Scottish vote, as 'we' are pretty irrelevant to Westminster results

The undecideds are strange lot.It looks like they could make up 25% of the voters.

What I have come across if folk moving from No to Yes or No to undecided.Once that move has begun I doubt folk will go No-undecided-No.And the No campaign will be praying for a lovely sunny day in September, because if it's minging they'll drop voters,whereas I don't think Yes will.

 

[Val]

Just reflect about that for a few minutes.
Perhaps it would help if you identified who is in control of the Scottish government.

Scotland doesn't have it's own Government, it has a devolved parliament, you reflect on that for a bit before introducing more inaccurate nonsense.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Scotland doesn't have it's own Government, it has a devolved parliament, you reflect on that for a bit before introducing more inaccurate nonsense.

What was that about inaccurate nonsense?

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/About

 

[c1973]

That's two different strands being cross talked so apologies for that.I stand by both claims, though.

The 'we' regarding the referendum I use is specifically the opinion from a yes perspective
The 'we' regarding GE's is also correct is it not?The Scottish vote, as 'we' are pretty irrelevant to Westminster results

The undecideds are strange lot.It looks like they could make up 25% of the voters.

What I have come across if folk moving from No to Yes or No to undecided.Once that move has begun I doubt folk will go No-undecided-No.And the No campaign will be praying for a lovely sunny day in September, because if it's minging they'll drop voters,whereas I don't think Yes will.

No probs. I kinda knew what you were driving at, I was really using your post to highlight a bugbear of mine as it read the correct way to illustrate my point.

Regarding the GE, I get what you are saying but again it's a bugbear the way the yes campaign spin it that I find annoying. You know, I'm a confirmed no voter, but if the snp (yep, I know it's a cross party thing, but they are at the forefront) conducted themselves a bit better, less spin and less haughty dismissive attitude to those who disagree coupled with 100% confirmation of black stuff off the West coast they may have got me listening. I reckon they've missed a trick tbh. Pity.

Edit: took out a quote I never intended to quote.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

As an undecided I don't think I am strange!

Finance
Family
Politics
Safety
Society
Health
Education
The Pound


These are the main issues for me.

I doubt if the positive yes/no voters can tick all those boxes.

 

[Val]

What was that about inaccurate nonsense?

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/About

Ok it's a devolved government, limited powers which was my point.

Edit to add - my (possibly incorrect) assumption is based on DFT ramblings about non-elected government has me thinking he was refering to Westminster and not Holyrood

 

[Adi2Dassler]

You know, I'm a confirmed no voter, but if the snp (yep, I know it's a cross party thing, but they are at the forefront) conducted themselves a bit better, less spin and less haughty dismissive attitude to those who disagree coupled with 100% confirmation of black stuff off the West coast they may have got me listening. I reckon they've missed a trick tbh. Pity.

There is still time, it's all about the timing.I also think Henry McLeish has been awfy quiet given his stature in Scotland.I'm convinced he wants to come out for yes.

re:The SNP, they could be the architects of their own defeat on this and I'll certainly never vote for them.I'm still at a lose as to why Scottish Labour grasped the opportunity to join yes and defeat The SNP regardless of yes/no.

 

[IanG]

I'm strange but not undecided.