Roll Up Group Handicaps

Swango1980 said:
My mindset is most likely different between teeing up in Round 2 of the Club Champs (if I had a good first round) compared to teeing up in the April Stableford. I get the point that a golfers mindset is not going to be identically the same for every single round of golf. I'd be the same, in the sense that going round and playing in a 4 ball with mates will be a different experience to playing in a board comp with guys I don't know, and who are maybe not very chatty. That being said, I still go out and try and play well (I'm not trying to hit bad shots, or trying to hit a driver into a 100 yard par 3 for a laugh, and other weird shots like that, when playing in a roll up). And, I've never seen any sign of other golfers not trying to do well during roll ups / swindles. Unless the round is already dead, but I've seen golfers act the same way in club competitions when they are no longer in contention.

But, again to clarify. I'm absolutely not suggesting for one second that a group of pals meeting up for a round of golf must submit scores for handicap, the discussion seemed to morph into that debate. That is very different, and I would never request golfers must do that.

I was simply saying that many clubs seem to have certain times during the week, where they run a roll up / swindle type event for all or groups of members. They all play singles stroke play and there may be 12-30+ of them. So, would it not be a good idea for a club to assist these groups in processing their results like a normal competition? That way, these golfers will have more "competition" rounds on their record, and it will help them if they ever try to get into other competitions with entry requirements related to competition rounds. It would be frustrating if a golfer played in a roll up every Thursday, but all those scores went in as GP scores and they were not permitted to enter certain comps. That golfer may try and argue that "what is the difference between the competition in the roll up and a competition at the weekend?"

To add, I'm also not suggesting a club should look for patterns of all golfers playing, to see if any meet up regularly and should be treated as competitions and scores going in for handicap. Just to recognise any key periods during the week where there is a clear form of competition organised by members such as a roll up / swindle, and treating that officially as a competition will benefit the members. It certainly seems to work very well at our place, and I'm sure it would work very well at other clubs
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...And (yes I know!!) this is where the issues lie....when does blue morph into green?.....for many there is no difference, for others there is a quite distinct line between the two. How big does the blue group need to be before it is considered a green event? What level of blue organisation is needed, before it becomes a green event?

regarding your final paragraph...there are some out there who seemingly ARE looking to see if they can do exactly what you describe in red, who believe that clubs are utterly failing in their WHS obligations if they dont do that. Its as though England Golfs main handicapping committee comprises Cardinal's Ximenez, Biggles and Fang.
 
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Until reading this thread, I didn't realise that competitions were so terrifying and stressful for some people, and that social golf was the only time they "had fun". All my golf is fun, if it wasn't, I wouldn't do it.
I am in awe of golfers with a range of different mindsets that they can pick and choose from depending on the circumstances. I just play golf (sort of), and try to do my best with the limited skills at my disposal.
 
nickjdavis said:
...And (yes I know!!) this is where the issues lie....when does blue morph into green?.....for many there is no difference, for others there is a quite distinct line between the two. How big does the blue group need to be before it is considered a green event? What level of blue organisation is needed, before it becomes a green event?

regarding your final paragraph...there are some out there who seemingly ARE looking to see if they can do exactly what you describe in red, who believe that clubs are utterly failing in their WHS obligations. its as though England Golfs main handicapping committee comprises Cardinal's Ximenez, Biggles and Fang.
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If a golf club Committee was forcing the hand of golfers who turn up regularly as mates, to put cards in as competitions I think I would be horrified and impressed in equal measure. Horrified because of the authoritarian approach to golfers who may just be playing a bit of match play or ignoring certain rules, impressed that the Committee wish to get involved and take on a bit more admin potentially.

It is true that you could ask "where is the line"? I guess it won't always be clear.

For me, I would think a good approach by a Committee to identify where regular roll-ups, swindles, etc are occurring at their club. I suppose sometimes that may be easy, as the Club may already be reserving a few tee slots for them, in this age of having to book tee times. However, they may also pick up a regular set of members who book in like everyone else in a few consecutive groups, and be aware that they are competing in a Stableford Comp amongst themselves.

Thereafter, the Committee could approach these groups and explain that they think it would be a great idea for all these golfers to put the scores on the system, and that the Committee could aid them in doing so (just like they may be aiding them in reserved slots). If the group of 6/8 mates who play every week don't want to put in scores because they often play matchplay or have some funky rules between mates, then I can't see there being an issue with keep doing what they are doing. But if there are 30/40 playing in swindles, then the Committee should really try and encourage those scores to go in. Of course, maybe there would be 2 or 3 golfers that would moan about doing so, but you'll probably have quite a few golfers that are absolutely fine with it, and everyone else doesn't care either way. So, the Committee would then set the swindle up as a competition (the 2 or 3 dissenting voices shouldn't speak for all), and you'll probably find that everyone who played before will continue to play after. Obviously, if that large swindle actually didn't play singles stroke play, but played some sort of Ryder Cup match play format, then the Committee could just let them do what they were doing, and no scores go in. I'd imagine that is rare though
 
Swango1980 said:
Obviously, if that large swindle actually didn't play singles stroke play, but played some sort of Ryder Cup match play format, then the Committee could just let them do what they were doing, and no scores go in. I'd imagine that is rare though
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According to EG only if they weren't running there own handicap system, otherwise the committee have to get involved.
 
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Perhaps I missed it, but the rolls ups/swindles I know play all shots, and calculate their s/ford for there winners etc. The winners have points knocked off for next time or however long they want off that days score. The hcp isnt altered, they just reduce the s/ford points total by a set amount depending on previous games.
 
RichA said:
I don't

I don't get this at all.
If it's a comp I'll try my best.
But most of my GP rounds are largely a four hour social with pals. I won't always remember where I've hit my ball, never mind how many strokes I've taken.
We aren't all the same.
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Surely though one of the things that is missing (at least from the more recent posts on this thread - admitting to not having read them all in detail) is that I don't believe that we are talking about, such as, a casual round with three mates. I cannot see how such a round of golf can be described as an organised round, with sufficient numbers taking part and competing against each other, for it to be deemed acceptable for WHS purposes.

Maybe I've missed this in the discussion. But if I have - what is the minimum number of players competing against each other at (notionally - or maybe not even notionally) the 'same time' for that to be deemed an acceptable round for WHS purposes.
 
Bunkermagnet said:
The winners have points knocked off for next time or however long they want off that days score. The hcp isnt altered, they just reduce the s/ford points total by a set amount depending on previous games.
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Thats a parallel handicap according the the handicap police though.
They frown on it. Gravely. And mutter sotto voce about re-education programmes. Or disassocitation. Or banishment to Mantua. Anyway, you are dicing with scary stuff there.
 
IanM said:
....and I've lost track about what the argument is😁
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Board table in Woodhall Spa want golfers to play off official handicaps and submit counting card whenever there is even a hint of competition in the air.

Golfers nationwide shrug, say, jog on.

Board table stroppy, threaten excommuniations.

Golfers get on with game as theyve always played it.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Surely though one of the things that is missing (at least from the more recent posts on this thread - admitting to not having read them all in detail) is that I don't believe that we are talking about, such as, a casual round with three mates. I cannot see how such a round of golf can be described as an organised round, with sufficient numbers taking part and competing against each other, for it to be deemed acceptable for WHS purposes.

Maybe I've missed this in the discussion. But if I have - what is the minimum number of players competing against each other at (notionally - or maybe not even notionally) the 'same time' for that to be deemed an acceptable round for WHS purposes.
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No, I realise this discussion is about organised comps, although EG do seem to want us to record every round.
I was just responding to somebody who suggested that they didn't know of any golfer who ever plays a round of golf without trying their best. I only try my best in the 5% of my rounds that are in comps. The rest I don't even count how many shots I've taken half the time.
 
A highly informal poll of five folk I know in different clubs all say that putts are given at times in their roll ups.
People play social golf for fun and it very often is not played precisely to the RoG that is required for handicapping purposes

Trying to enforce conformity on groups out to enjoy themselves in informal golf settings with a myriad of different practices, habits and personal accounting practices is absolutely barking mad and not what golf needs.
 
How does this diktat fit with model local rule E5 (alternative to stroke and distance)?
“The Local Rule is appropriate for general play where golfers are playing casual rounds or playing their own competitions. ”
EG are clearly extending the circumstances in which the rule can’t be in place beyond that which was ever envisaged by R&A.
 
Backache said:
A highly informal poll of five folk I know in different clubs all say that putts are given at times in their roll ups.
People play social golf for fun and it very often is not played precisely to the RoG that is required for handicapping purposes

Trying to enforce conformity on groups out to enjoy themselves in informal golf settings with a myriad of different practices, habits and personal accounting practices is absolutely barking mad and not what golf needs.
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Hmmm...I'm maybe going against the grain here...and (al)most certainly I am in the context of the rollup I play in...but I'm not sure it's that hard for one or more members of a group to say to another "...you can have that for rollup purposes - but remember for your card you need to hole out" (very soon I suspect the second part of that would not be required). And that statement can be proceeded with whatever jesting and jollity the group wishes to indulge in. They then just shut up for the ten seconds it takes for the player to hole out - and as it's most often going to be a toddler the likelihood of him missing is low...besides...in the context of a round the number of missed tiddlers is going to be small.
 
Recognize that I'm an "outsider" in this discussion, not part of GB&I. Our "groups" have "competitions" (maybe could be called roll-ups or swindles?) every Monday, Tuesday, Thurs, Friday and Saturday. Not the same players every day, but each day is a subset of about 45 members. There could be 8 to 24 players each day. We do not have set aside tee times, we all get on our computers to book tee times when the tee sheet opens 7 days in advance. If we get more tee times than we feel we need, the extras are cancelled very quickly, usually within about 5 minutes. Other groups at the club do the same, and we all know what times each group prefers. Sometimes there is "swapping" of times between groups to that tee times for the groups can be continuous. The organizer will make the draw from those that are playing, sends it out to the players and the golf shop. Our groups always play best two or three out of four, or a Stableford version if there are three-balls in the mix. Each day we each throw $5 into the pot, to be awarded to the winners and runners-up on the day - presented while having a beer after the round. Yes, we do have gimmes within the groups, "within the leather", carefully regulated by the players. Contrary to what some posters on this site believe and extol, we don't have mulligans, breakfast balls or free drops if a ball is lost or out of bounds! There are two nationally certified referees in the larger group who willingly assist/educate on Rules. Everyone is trying their best (at least until their score for the hole wouldn't be counted), and we do post all of these scores for handicapping purposes. Our system does not differentiate between competition scores and general play cards - we do post scores nearly every time we play. Some years I have posted over 100 scores.
There is "peer review" amongst our groups, players are "called out" and humoursly ridiculed if their handicap index gets above what the group feels is their normal, and congratulations for good rounds. Don't think there is anyone in these groups who is not focused on achieving a lower handicap index.
Bandits or sandbaggers are not welcome.
My point is that I don't see why there is such consternation and anxiety about "competition" scores - the system is designed for all scores played by the Rules of golf and handicapping, whether "general/casual play" or "competition" (maybe excluding what we call "hit and giggle" play)
 
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