Reform of Tax Credit - Lords

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And so with Osborne quite disgracefully feeling 'comfortable' with his reforms of Tax Credits, and (ever more uncomfortable looking) Tory ministers and apologists 'making the case' despite all of the analysis showing that the impact on the poorest is not just hypothetical - we have the Bill in The Lords. We will no doubt hear how it would be unconstitutional for the Lords to vote it down as it is finance and in the manifesto.

In the manifesto? - I think not unless you are duplicitous enough to try and pretend that the £12Bn cuts in the manifesto covers it - even although you couldn't say at the time what the £12Bn covered - we haven't forgotten that you know. Neither have we forgotten what Cameron said back in April about NOT cutting Tax Credits or Child Benefit. But hey - that was pre-election rhetoric right - we wouldn't be stupid enough to believe that sort of stuff - would we...?

Financial - oh yes - everything boils down to finances doesn't it. Even those things that have a direct and immediate impact on welfare - it's money - so finance - so Lords - keep out. Nonsense. It's the wellbeing of many millions of our FELLOW citizens that we are talking about. They may be that group you sometimes see and hear of - that's 'the feckless poor' to you George - but to me they are my fellow and equal citizens.

And of course - all the cuts have to be done because if we don't cut the welfare bill by 2020 we will be damaging the future of our children. Yes George - that'll be the same children that your cuts will hurt today - maybe to the extent that they won't be able to take advantage of that 'Brave New World' you envisage post 2020 - that BNW built upon the tax credit cuts, income tax cuts, and such as social care cost capping for the wealthier you'll bring in for the 2020 GE on the back of your 'essential' savings.

Oh yes George - you are are real humdinger of a Chancellor. Forget the 'I'm in listening mode' guff - because you are wearing ear muffs to cut out the noise of the protests. Take them off and try listening - then grow a pair of balls and admit you have messed it up. I'll love you for doing it if you do - believe me George.

 

[MarkE]

Tax credits should'nt be immune to cuts, like everything else. I did'nt see everybody up in arms when frontline disability and social care funds were decimated because it did'nt effect the majority. Double standards, everyone should take a hit.

As for the House of lords, that bunch of unelected fools should keep out of it.

 

[lex!]

Isn't he just doing his JOB ?
The country currently spends 100bn more than it earns per year, so surely something's got to be done about that.
Otherwise it will all run out and there won't be any free money for anyone any more.

 

[Hobbit]

As much as I've disagreed with some of your postings in the past Hogie, I can't disagree one jot with your OP. I've heard Osbourne's comments about he's cut corporation tax to allow companies to pay a better wage, hence cutting Tax Credits won't hurt as much. Let the companies pay a better wage BEFORE cutting Tax Credits.

My God, do we need a viable opposition!

 

[Foxholer]

My God, do we need a viable opposition!

The moderating influence the LibDems had when the Conservatives didn't have an overall majority has been seriously under-rated!

I believe that it's part of the role of The Lords to challenge this sort of 'unfair' legislation - and return it to the Commons for reconsideration if appropriate! The argument that 'balancing the books' was part of the manifesto, therefore this should be auto-allowed is simply rubbish! Both sides seem to be exaggerating the effects, but the fact that some needy folk will become even more needy is simply wrong to me!

 

[jp5]

The Conservatives won a majority so this policy should be no surprise to anyone that voted for them.

I can only assume a significant number of people dependent on tax credits, such as the lady on QT the other week, voted for the Conservatives to win them their majority.

Tax credits (and the HoL) need reform, but the mitigating policies need to be introduced at the same time as fazing out credits.

 

[ColchesterFC]

The Conservatives won a majority so this policy should be no surprise to anyone that voted for them.

I can only assume a significant number of people dependent on tax credits, such as the lady on QT the other week, voted for the Conservatives to win them their majority.

Tax credits (and the HoL) need reform, but the mitigating policies need to be introduced at the same time as fazing out credits.

I assume that would be the same lady that when she had her circumstances examined wasn't actually going to be any worse off under the tax credit changes and yet has been held up as some kind of poster girl against the cuts.

My favourite quote from her is that she "has lost 7 stone over the last 3 years as she can't afford enough food". Or to put it another way, because she is no longer over eating she has slimmed down to a healthy weight.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...edit-cuts-may-not-be-affected-by-reforms.html

 

[Tashyboy]

Reading about this on the BBC Site from earlier this year when tax credit cuts were first proposed.
in essence when it was first introduced the number of children living below the poverty line was 36%. It fell to 19%. For that someone needs a massive pat on the back.
But and it's a massive but, further on it says if you are single with Three kids you can claim £23,855 per year in tax credits as long as she/ he does no more than 16 HR per week, but it is 16 HR per week max on min wage? The individual earns £5,400 wage and £23,855 in tax credits.There is no incentive to work longer as you would lose 41p in the pound. Not my words just quoting what is said.
There in lies part of the problem, the tax credit idea is excellent but is open to massive abuse and abused it gets. Not just by the claimants either. Why do I have to pay as a taxpayer, tax credits to someone because an employer will not pay a living wage.
Surely in life as in work there has to be an incentive and this system encourages some of our society to be quiet happy as they are.

 

[MegaSteve]

Think this will mark the beginning of the end for the HoL...


Georgie boy will not take being crossed well...

 

[Paul77]

Osbourne looked like someone just pissed on his cornflakes last night lol. He was fuming.

There's 2 schools of thought on this with me.

1 - Taking away Tax Credits would make folk get off their asses and earn more money. The Tory Gov policy since day one. Those who want to work will be rewarded.

2 - Some folk mentally or physically can't better themselves, so Tax Credits provides a buffer to those willing to work, stay in work and not slip into oblivion.

For me, Tax Credits introduced a level of laziness in folk. Only work a certain amount of hours a week and we'll top you up. Whereas if you we over the threshold by a sniff you had yo pull yourself up to the minimum threshold yourself. Where was the incentive for anyone to work more? My ex-wife played the system to a T and still does.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Osbourne looked like someone just pissed on his cornflakes last night lol. He was fuming.

There's 2 schools of thought on this with me.

1 - Taking away Tax Credits would make folk get off their asses and earn more money. The Tory Gov policy since day one. Those who want to work will be rewarded.

2 - Some folk mentally or physically can't better themselves, so Tax Credits provides a buffer to those willing to work, stay in work and not slip into oblivion.

For me, Tax Credits introduced a level of laziness in folk. Only work a certain amount of hours a week and we'll top you up. Whereas if you we over the threshold by a sniff you had yo pull yourself up to the minimum threshold yourself. Where was the incentive for anyone to work more? My ex-wife played the system to a T and still does.

So easy to do this. Obvious really when so many workers are on zero hours contracts - makes working a few hours more is easy - if the hours are there and the employer wants to use you. But why would they give you more than 16hrs - or whatever the threshold is when costs to them then kick in - when the employer can have as many employees as he wants sitting there on zero hours contracts waiting for hours to be allocated.

Oh yes - just get out there and earn more. easy.

Many of us might well know a few folks working the system - we all know a lot of people. How many of us know those many who are not working it - and depend upon the system despite their own best efforts to not be.

 

[Paul77]

I'm disappointed that you based a whole reply on the one little point, when there was more to my post. Standard workers who can't claim benefits live by this code everyday. We want more? we work harder to get it. It's as simple as that. Folk who rely on benefits to subsidise their income need to have a serious think about how long that's going to last, and nothing but a culture shock and lifestyle change is going to help with that.

My mum can't walk, she can't sit for too long either. She refuses to claim benefits despite losing her job last year. She lives in the dark because she keeps her bills low. She doesn't want help despite my efforts. Others feel they have a sense of entitlement without actually earning it. Whole generations of people live on benefits and feel it's their right to do so. Tax Credits should be a springboard to folk wanting to clear themselves right out of the threshold, not a subsidy for infinity.

I don't know, maybe I have a more jaded view of it because I worked in the DWP for 5 years.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm disappointed that you based a whole reply on the one little point, when there was more to my post. Standard workers who can't claim benefits live by this code everyday. We want more? we work harder to get it. It's as simple as that. Folk who rely on benefits to subsidise their income need to have a serious think about how long that's going to last, and nothing but a culture shock and lifestyle change is going to help with that.

My mum can't walk, she can't sit for too long either. She refuses to claim benefits despite losing her job last year. She lives in the dark because she keeps her bills low. She doesn't want help despite my efforts. Others feel they have a sense of entitlement without actually earning it. Whole generations of people live on benefits and feel it's their right to do so. Tax Credits should be a springboard to folk wanting to clear themselves right out of the threshold, not a subsidy for infinity.

I don't know, maybe I have a more jaded view of it because I worked in the DWP for 5 years.

I can absolutely agree with you on much of this - but especially your mention of entitlement

That so many of us across the board have strong feelings of (personal) entitlement is I feel one of the greatest problems that we have as a society. When things don't match up to what we feel we are entitled to - be we benefit claimant, user of the NHS or high end taxpayer - we engender resentments - and we all seek to find someone or something to lay the blame for what is stoking these resentments, or to take out our resentments on.

How many of us actually looking to ourselves to understand our feelings and really question the basis for that entitlement and whether it is worth the loss of peace of mind that that feeling brings about. For me - peace of mind is far, far more valuable a commodity than most of what I might feel I need, want or feel entitled to.

Sorry - that was a bit of a digression...but for my own peace of mind...

 

[Paul77]

Yes indeed. Entitlement is dangerous. Striving for more can be dangerous but providing it's kept within manageable constraints then that's fine. The Gov literature on benefit forms don't help matters when they read, that you will be awarded the benefits you are entitled to. You are then subjected to a score of folk all shouting about being entitled to this and that, and they left school and went straight on Jobseekers.

 

[lex!]

Call into any Weatherspoons on Fish n Chip day and try and get to the bar, then you'll see where all the entitlement goes.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yes indeed. Entitlement is dangerous. Striving for more can be dangerous but providing it's kept within manageable constraints then that's fine. The Gov literature on benefit forms don't help matters when they read, that you will be awarded the benefits you are entitled to. You are then subjected to a score of folk all shouting about being entitled to this and that, and they left school and went straight on Jobseekers.

..and other end of spectrum 'I am entitled to keep what I earn and pay as little tax as possible, playing the taxation system to a T as I can'; I am entitled to anything I can get from the NHS even although I could afford to pay for some things myself'; 'I am entitled to take time off work whenever I need to look after my children'; 'I am entitled to get as much out of the university grant and loans system whether or not I need; and entitled to get my child into the school of my preference, regardless of the impact on others'

And so it goes on.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Call into any Weatherspoons on Fish n Chip day and try and get to the bar, then you'll see where all the entitlement goes.

That'll be the student children of wealthy but separated parents spending their grants (not loans - grants) - I know plenty of them.

 

[lex!]

That'll be the student children of wealthy but separated parents spending their grants (not loans - grants) - I know plenty of them.

No. That's only on surf and turf day.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

No. That's only on surf and turf day.

These are the students whose parental circumstances are so straightened that their student grant only covers their spending for one trip to Croyde for the surfing and once to Ascot for the racing a year. I tell you. Could do my head in if I let it!

 

[Hendy]

Looks like I am going to be one of those effected by this. I work for Tesco contract is 9.5 hours. Do what ever over time I can get tho normally get around 16-20 hours a week ATM and loads more this time of year up to Xmas.

Only option I have next year is back to one of them call centres not much work around these parts unless you have a degree in IT which I dont plus I suffer with migraine headaches and sitting in front of screen 8-10 hours a day I have to live on pills and was advised to get a new line of work was lucky at the time to get into Tesco as all my working life has been in front of screens. And over a process of brain and MRI scans food Diaries etc my main Trigger was the computer screen.

But that's how the cookie crumbles as they say. Get myself back on the sumatription tablets to keep it at bay