Railways, Underground and Unions

[Deleted member 1740]

View attachment 45454
Here's why the pay deal was rejected

People need to forget the numbers the devil is in detail like this which is frankly disgusting

Yeah but train drivers are all on £300k per year with gold plated pensions blah blah blah.

When you read that and listen to the spin put out by Rail Bosses and Government, i cant understand how some are still blaming the workforce ??‍??‍

 

[oxymoron]

This thread is about Railways, Underground and Unions……..

We’ll never agree anyway which is fine, My personal belief is there is always a choice where you work, if you’re not happy with pay, pension, conditions etc, move on.

This attitude really makes me laugh , i take it you do not live in an area where there is only 1 significant industry ? For example Port Talbot with the steelworks ? If you did you would realize this is not
always possible as there are frequently no other jobs around .
Following your belief, if the nurses and ambulance people in your area decide bugger this , i am off to work in Tesco's (other supermarkets are available ) then god forbid you need their expertise urgently,
not to put too fine a point on it , you are screwed ! However the shelves at your local shop will be well looked after so hey ho .

Some professions need to be paid the correct rate for the job so pay it . Professional , full time workers should not have to be using food banks in this day and age and we as a nation should be ashamed of ourselves .

 

[PJ87]

Yeah but train drivers are all on £300k per year with gold plated pensions blah blah blah.

When you read that and listen to the spin put out by Rail Bosses and Government, i cant understand how some are still blaming the workforce ??‍??‍

Thought it was a million a year ? God sake pay cut.

The amount of misunderstanding from people is frankly unreal

Amount of people who thought you got paid when on strike

I remember back in my station days was a *** down weekend so hivi on, directing customers outside what buses to use

Guy spits at my feet "think it's disgusting your on strike"

 

[PJ87]

This attitude really makes me laugh , i take it you do not live in an area where there is only 1 significant industry ? For example Port Talbot with the steelworks ? If you did you would realize this is not
always possible as there are frequently no other jobs around .
Following your belief, if the nurses and ambulance people in your area decide bugger this , i am off to work in Tesco's (other supermarkets are available ) then god forbid you need their expertise urgently,
not to put too fine a point on it , you are screwed ! However the shelves at your local shop will be well looked after so hey ho .

Some professions need to be paid the correct rate for the job so pay it . Professional , full time workers should not have to be using food banks in this day and age and we as a nation should be ashamed of ourselves .

Problem is there are those who don't believe some of these are professional jobs and because they don't have a degree don't deserve a wage.

 

[PNWokingham]

The clue is cheaper exports from abroad. At the time miners were on strike a lot, productivity was low and they basically wanted more money for less work. Hardly surprising the industry went belly up.

some parralels to the unions not accepting any of the modernisation changes that are needed to reduce costs, increase productivity, reduce subsidies etc.
Any none of these even touch pensions - the private sector lost final salary schemes 20 years ago - they are an anachronism that is easily replaced with a well funded money purchase for future entitlements (you keep your existing defined benefit) that helps remove massive uncertainty from the administrator - and is much better for personal inheritance reasons...Pensions will be the reasons for next year's strikes no doubt

 

[Deleted member 23270]

Some professions need to be paid the correct rate for the job so pay it . Professional , full time workers should not have to be using food banks in this day and age and we as a nation should be ashamed of ourselves .

True.....but looking at the salaries being quoted it appears train drivers are already on a healthy wage, certainly a lot more than coach drivers which to my mind is a more taxing job.

 

[PJ87]

True.....but looking at the salaries being quoted it appears train drivers are already on a healthy wage, certainly a lot more than coach drivers which to my mind is a more taxing job.

Without trying to offend coach drivers as this is banded about a lot it comes down to responsibility.

I'll go down the example of bus drivers Vs tube drivers

A bus driver is responsible for 100 people

Any issues they safely pull over and empty the bus and wait for assistance

A tube driver has up to 1000 customers they are responsible for , in deep level tunnels (or out on track in network rail cases)

They have to try and fix the train as the eyes on the ground, and if Ness will walk the customers to safety of the next station If they train is stuck for good (it does happen)

 

[3offTheTee]

Following the increased strikes planned how many days will be lost by Mid Jan. if all the strikes go ahead?

How much approx. is that likely to cost a train driver?

What I am trying to find out is the approx. amount lost and what % will be required to break even for the train drivers.

Over to you Paul

 

[PJ87]

Following the increased strikes planned how many days will be lost by Mid Jan. if all the strikes go ahead?

How much approx. is that likely to cost a train driver?

What I am trying to find out is the approx. amount lost and what % will be required to break even for the train drivers.

Over to you Paul

In all honestly I don't know

Drivers aren't part of this still, that's asleef in the main I believe and this is other railways staff

However it's 4 days before Xmas but I doubt anyone will be working all 4 there will be rest days

Also this Xmas Eve one is a myth, hardly any staff will be out as hardly anyone will be in after 1800 on Xmas Eve anyways (start wise) and boxing days services don't run

The cost factor goes out window tho if jobs are saved as people may be out of a job this time next year

 

[Voyager EMH]

A lack of investment and poor management was part of the reason, coupled with the fact that we simply had too many brands all bundled into one company (British Leyland) producing very similar cars and actually competing with themselves.

They were nationalised in 1975 by the Wilson government in an attempt to stop the whole thing going to the wall, the government poured £11 Billion pounds of taxpayers money into it but it was not enough.

But it’s laughable you not recognising the role the unions played in its downfall.
Take this example 1977/78:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news.../2017/11/16/red-robbo-ruined-british-leyland/

520 Stopages were called in a 12 month period at Longbridge by a militant agitator shop steward. This led to shoddy unreliable cars that the public turned their back on.

There are many contributing factors to the demise of the British car industry but to ignore the unions role in it is extremely blinkered.

Toyota, Citroen and Peugeot recently created similar cars - the Aygo, C1 and 107. These have been successful despite competing with themselves.

Please tell us where you get the "fact" £11 billion pounds of taxpayers money in 1975.
Since when have "I" not recognised the role of unions during the "downfall" of British car manufacturing? I regard it as laughable that you think that I am ignoring the role of the unions in 1970s car manufacturing. I regard the unions as another symptom not a cause. They brought about their own "downfall" during the 1970s.

I won't be throwing away any of my textbooks in favour of "expressandstar" anytime soon. I have no blinkers to remove.

 

[hovis]

All I can add is don't believe what the media and top chiefs are peddling. They are very good at padding their side of the argument and making the other side look bad. Soon you will hear that "greedy" firefighters have refused a 5% payrise. Funny how the media don't mention that the 5% isn't government funded. The local brigades have to pay it out of their already massively cut budget. Our chief has already said that he'll simply cancel overtime to pay for the 5% (putting the public at risk). A typical firefighter works two additional shifts per month in overtime earning about 2k extra after tax. If we get the 5% payrise that's only 1.5k pre tax. You see the problem!!!!!
The public sector are waaaaaaaaay behind on pay following 12 years of austerity . 16 years ago a fire fighter earnt 27/28k. Today its 30/1k. 10% increase over 16 years. That's not even close to 1% per year.

 

[PJ87]

All I can add is don't believe what the media and top chiefs are peddling. They are very good at padding their side of the argument and making the other side look bad. Soon you will hear that "greedy" firefighters have refused a 5% payrise. Funny how the media don't mention that the 5% isn't government funded. The local brigades have to pay it out of their already massively cut budget. Our chief has already said that he'll simply cancel overtime to pay for the 5%. A typical firefight works two additional shifts per month in overtime earning about 2k extra after tax. If we get the 5% payrise that's only 1.5k pre tax. You see the problem!!!!!
The public sector are waaaaaaaaay behind on pay following 12 years of austerity . 16 years ago a fire fighter earnt 27/28k. Today its 30/1k. 10% increase over 16 years. That's not even close to 1% per year.

Sorry hovis but you should be grateful for the job and the money regardless otherwise go work at Asda (other supermarkets are available)

 

[hovis]

Sorry hovis but you should be grateful for the job and the money regardless otherwise go work at Asda (other supermarkets are available)

? You say that but people are actually leaving the service and taking up jobs like a forklift truck driver. It actually pays more. The obvious answer and something I can hear certain people on this forum screaming is "go and do that then". I am already seeing the calibre of recruits dramatically declining as people (decent people) don't want to work for crumbs. Our latest guy didn't know what a Philips head screw driver was ?.
Hopefully the people taking the hard line won't need rescuing in the near future.

16 years ago it was unheard of to leave the service. Now we lose about 20% of recruits before they take their 6 month assessments. A young lad left because the £1400 he was getting paid was making times hard. Especially when he was putting £230 a month fuel into his car

 

[PNWokingham]

All I can add is don't believe what the media and top chiefs are peddling. They are very good at padding their side of the argument and making the other side look bad. Soon you will hear that "greedy" firefighters have refused a 5% payrise. Funny how the media don't mention that the 5% isn't government funded. The local brigades have to pay it out of their already massively cut budget. Our chief has already said that he'll simply cancel overtime to pay for the 5% (putting the public at risk). A typical firefighter works two additional shifts per month in overtime earning about 2k extra after tax. If we get the 5% payrise that's only 1.5k pre tax. You see the problem!!!!!
The public sector are waaaaaaaaay behind on pay following 12 years of austerity . 16 years ago a fire fighter earnt 27/28k. Today its 30/1k. 10% increase over 16 years. That's not even close to 1% per year.

i think the firefighters are top of the tree along with nurses and deserve a double digit pay rise.

 

[PJ87]

? You say that but people are actually leaving the service and taking up jobs like a forklift truck driver. It actually pays more. The obvious answer and something I can hear certain people on this forum screaming is "go and do that then". I am already seeing the calibre of recruits dramatically declining as people (decent people) don't want to work for crumbs. Our latest guy didn't know what a Philips head screw driver was ?.
Hopefully the people taking the hard line won't need rescuing in the near future.

16 years ago it was unheard of to leave the service. Now we lose about 20% of recruits before they take their 6 month assessments. A young lad left because the £1400 he was getting paid was making times hard. Especially when he was putting £230 a month fuel into his car

There was a study years ago that police need to be well paid to stop them being tempted to take bribes as they wouldnt need the money to get by

Then we just underfund them...

 

[hovis]

i think the firefighters are top of the tree along with nurses and deserve a double digit pay rise.

I personally agree. Of course I would. The fire service was going for a strike pre inflation anyway. We are 12% to 16% behind inflation before this anyway. So now its more like 25%.
I know many nurses ? and their situation is dire too. I really don't know how they don't burn out faster than they do. Teachers too, they are propa grafters.

It wouldn't bother me if the people in charge are on crumbs too but their currently getting 100k grants to do up their flat

 

[PJ87]

I personally agree. Of course I would. The fire service was going for a strike pre inflation anyway. We are 12% to 16% behind inflation before this anyway. So now its more like 25%.
I know many nurses ? and their situation is dire too. I really don't know how they don't burn out faster than they do. Teachers too, they are propa grafters.

It wouldn't bother me if the people in charge are on crumbs too but their currently getting 100k grants to do up their flat

But teachers never work and have the entire summer off etc etc all that usual rubbish that gets spouted

Never known a teacher not work during the "holidays"

 

[Beezerk]

Saw a BBC article earlier that showed the pay rise demands of all those sectors going on strike.
Wowzer, some are totally unrealistic and just bonkers ?

 

[hovis]

Saw a BBC article earlier that showed the pay rise demands of all those sectors going on strike.
Wowzer, some are totally unrealistic and just bonkers ?

The first rule of fight club is to reach high and expect low. Both side know this happens. It just makes room for middle ground. The fire service is "hoping" for 5% government funded. No idea what theyll go in at. Probably 12%

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I have family members who have seen both sides of the fence, and the biggest comment they make is the productivity levels differ so much private to public sector, with them often being told to “slow down or you’ll make us look bad”. Needless to say, their time in public sector never lasted that long.
My brothers eldest daughter is now a qualified nurse. The aggro and abuse she gets from other nurses is beyond belief. As a result, she’s now aiming to leave the NHS and join the Army as a nurse.
For many years, my dad was a shop steward. He always said the moderate members never bothered and as a result the more extreme members took over with the resulting arguements that followed.