Provisional question

[TriggerTech]

Quick one -

A playing partner fired his tee shot into high rough

He's taken a provisional and the provisional has gone past the point the first ball is expected

The first ball is now found

Should the first ball be played without penalty or is the overriding rule that the provisional gas gone past the first ball mean the first ball is declared lost (although found) and the provisional under penalty becomes the ball in. Play?

Thanks in advance

Tt

 

[Foxholer]

As soon as the 1st ball is found, the Provisional is 'out of play'!

Where the heck did you get the idea that a Provisional merely going past where the original was likely to be meant the Provisional was the ball in play?!!!

Mind you, if you PLAY THE PROVISIONAL past where the original ball was likely to be, then the original is deemed lost and the Provisional is now the ball in play.

 

[Spuddy]

If the provisional was in play once it had passed the original then you'ld never be able to look for and subsequently play a ball that you duffed off the tee into the rough 50yds in front.

 

[TriggerTech]

Spuddy

That's what I was getting at
1st - 80 yards (in play but next to a fence out of sight)
Provisional played 260 down the middle of the fairway (in play)
I thought that as soon as the provisional passes the point of the likely location of the first (or in this case confirmed location as the ball was found) the provisional and penalty shot become applicable as the provisional has gone further than the first ?

Had a look around before coming on hear. -lots of conflicting info

 

[Old Skier]

Original found, original played. Provisional picked up and placed in pocket for next time.

 

[rulefan]

Spuddy


I thought that as soon as the provisional passes the point of the likely location of the first (or in this case confirmed location as the ball was found) the provisional and penalty shot become applicable as the provisional has gone further than the first ?

Had a look around before coming on hear. -lots of conflicting info

Correct answers will be given in this forum (although not always in the first response but it was this time).

The words you use above are a misinterpretation of the rule which says:

If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play.

 

[Colin L]

Had a look around before coming on hear. -lots of conflicting info

Don't get me wrong - everyone is welcome to put their questions to the forum and will get an accurate answer - but in looking around before coming on to this forum, you presumably didn't include a look at the rules book. No conflicting info there

You can find the rules online here
http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/

or here
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-01/

I don't know why, but I find the usga presentation easier to use.

That being said, it's not always easy to know where to look for an answer so don't think I'm trying to put you off asking us for help. You'll find what rule fan has referred to in Rule 27-2b which is here
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-27/

 

[Foxholer]

Don't get me wrong - everyone is welcome to put their questions to the forum and will get an accurate answer - but in looking around before coming on to this forum, you presumably didn't include a look at the rules book. No conflicting info there

Problem is often that once a concept is imbedded in a human brain, it's amazingly easy for the eyes/brain interface to actually reinforce that concept, rather than counter it, which is what may be required - certainly was in this case! And The Rules are written pretty concisely, so a word or 2 ignored or interpreted, rather than taken exactly as stated, can produce an entirely wrong result - as exhibited here.

The key, imo, to reading the Rules is to try to start with no pre-conceptions - so absolutely literal reading is forced.

 

[Colin L]

The key, imo, to reading the Rules is to try to start with no pre-conceptions - so absolutely literal reading is forced.

If you really mean start with an empty mind, that must be why I get on well with the Rules.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Don't get me wrong - everyone is welcome to put their questions to the forum and will get an accurate answer - but in looking around before coming on to this forum, you presumably didn't include a look at the rules book. No conflicting info there

You can find the rules online here
http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/

or here
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-01/

I don't know why, but I find the usga presentation easier to use.

That being said, it's not always easy to know where to look for an answer so don't think I'm trying to put you off asking us for help. You'll find what rule fan has referred to in Rule 27-2b which is here
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-27/

Colin

I always prefer to refer to the R&A rules rather than the US version which is quite different from our rules. For example, US rules...

Rule 1a

A player may play a mulligan at any time and for any reason if his original shot does not go where he intended as long as he hoots and hollers loud enough for everyone on the golf course to hear him.

:thup:

 

[chrisd]

Colin

I always prefer to refer to the R&A rules rather than the US version which is quite different from our rules. For example, US rules...

Rule 1a

A player may play a mulligan at any time and for any reason if his original shot does not go where he intended as long as he hoots and hollers loud enough for everyone on the golf course to hear him.

:thup:

............. And you didn't let me play to those rules at Blackmore, shame on you D4s!

 

[delc]

The whole point of a provisional ball is to save time if you suspect that your original ball is lost or out of bounds. When playing a provisional ball you must do so before going forward to search and must announce that you are playing a provisional ball to your opponent in match play, or to your marker or a fellow competitor in stroke play. If the original ball is found in bounds, it is still the ball in play and the provisional ball must be abandoned. See Rule 27.

 

[Colin L]

Colin

I always prefer to refer to the R&A rules rather than the US version which is quite different from our rules. For example, US rules...

Rule 1a

A player may play a mulligan at any time and for any reason if his original shot does not go where he intended as long as he hoots and hollers loud enough for everyone on the golf course to hear him.

:thup:

I've relatively recently been discovering aspects of the American way of golf through the GolfWRX rules forum. Being habitually accustomed to playing even social golf entirely by the rules, it has been, shall we say, an educational experience.

 

[rulefan]

It's not only the golf, the forum is an eyeopener.

 

[duncan mackie]

It's not only the golf, the forum is an eyeopener.

indeed...:clap:

 

[TriggerTech]

Thanks for the replies

Colin I had skimmed the rules and obviously should have read it in greater detail

 

[Bigsmak]

I'll add a little bit to this discussion. If you find your original ball (in bounds) you can never play the provisional that you played off the tee. If you think that it is unplayable you have your usual options (play as it lies, take a shot penalty and either, 1, play from where you last played your shot, take a 2 club length drop (no nearer the hole) or keep the ball and the flag in a line and go back as far as you want...) -Once the original is found your provisional is not in play, you cannot decide to just play it as it's sitting better or 100 yards further down the fairway for 3 and it might be better for you.

Oh, and you can never declare your ball lost - another common misconception with golfers.. If someone finds your ball (in the 5 minutes) you really have a duty to identify it..... Even if it is sitting horrible.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Thanks for the replies

Colin I had skimmed the rules and obviously should have read it in greater detail

Hi TriggerTech - I do hope that those you play with are not so vague about other rules. Not meaning to get at you or the mates and those others you asked - but this is a complete misunderstanding of the most basic aspect of playing a provisional. Yes what you do in some circumstances regarding provisionals can become a bit contorted but your situation is straightforward.

I guess there is ambiguity if the rule is paraphrased and recalled along the lines of 'once the provisional is played past the point at where you think the original is at rest, then the provisional becomes the ball in play' - the word 'played' in this context would lead to ambiguity. But the rule won't be written as ambiguously.

Honestly - do what @ColinL has suggested - he's not taking the proverbial - if you haven't do try reading the rules and invent scenarios in your head as you do. You might think it's the sort of things that only golf geeks do but - and this is not meant to be harsh - you'll get yourself in a right mess if you don't - and it's easy to avoid.

 

[IanG]

Honestly - do what @ColinL has suggested - he's not taking the proverbial - if you haven't do try reading the rules and invent scenarios in your head as you do. You might think it's the sort of things that only golf geeks do but - and this is not meant to be harsh - you'll get yourself in a right mess if you don't - and it's easy to avoid.

If you have an iPhone or iPad the R&A Golf Rules App has a fun quiz mode that will invent scenarios for you to get you thinking about the rules - and then give you the right answer.

 

[chrisd]

If you have an iPhone or iPad the R&A Golf Rules App has a fun quiz mode that will invent scenarios for you to get you thinking about the rules - and then give you the right answer.

It's always interesting to do their quizzes on the rules, personally I like the USGA quiz as the questions often seem better written to me. I did the difficult ones on the R&A the other day and got 9/10 and the one I cocked up was due to sloppy reading of the question