Provisional picked up but wrong ball had been played.

[williamalex1]

It's already been pointed out twice that the player did not move his ball. His fellow competitor did i.e. the OP. The OP wrote:

Was about to give it up when he spotted it on 2nd fairway, yup Titleist 2 ,good to go. He played into green and I picked his provisional up

His fellow competitor was an outside agency and so the player could replace the ball without penalty (Rule 18-1).
When the player came back to rectify his wrong ball error, he could have used anything that was left of his 5 minute search time to have a further look for his original ball. Once the 5 minutes was up, the provisional ball became the ball in play even though the OP had picked it up. He could replace it without penalty - or drop it if the spot was not determinable - and carry on to play his 6th shot. (Provisional ball lying 3; plus 2 penalty strokes for wrong ball)

5th shot no ???.

 

[rulefan]

Yes having played what he thought was his original ball he asked me to pick it up.

[h=2]18-2a/16[/h][h=4]Competitor's Ball Picked Up by Fellow-Competitor at Competitor's Request[/h]Q. A competitor, mistakenly thinking his ball in play in the rough was a wrong ball, asked his fellow-competitor to pick up the ball. The fellow-competitor did so and then the error was discovered. Is the competitor subject to penalty under Rule 18-2a or exempt from penalty by virtue of Rule 18-4?


A. Because the lifting of the ball by the fellow-competitor was at the request of the competitor, it would not be correct to exonerate the competitor under Rule 18-4.


The competitor incurred a one-stroke penalty under Rule 18-2a and he was required to replace his ball.

 

[Colin L]

if the FC picked up the provisional, would it be allowed for it to be replaced, could the point it was picked up from be established accurately?

If the spot where the ball should be replaced cannot be determined, the ball must be dropped. Rule 20-3c

 

[Colin L]

Yes, he has to return to the tee because the provisional ball ceases to be a provisional once the player makes another stroke. It's irrelavent whether the stroke is made at the correct ball or not. This is only an opinion, there may or may not be a decision to cover this situation, it's something that is likely to have happened before.

When the player played the wrong ball, the original ball was in play. When he came back to sort the error, the original ball was still in play as time spent in playing a wrong ball does not count in the 5 minutes. He could have continued the search for the remainder of that 5 minutes and had he found it in time he could have played it (his 4th shot) and only then would his provisional be abandoned. The original was not found and so the provisional ball was in play.

 

[Colin L]

5th shot no ???.

No, his 6th
Tee shot = 1
Provisional ball =1
Penalty stroke (lost ball) =1
Penalty strokes for wrong ball = 2
Next stroke is his 6th.

However, now that it has been clarified that the player asked the OP to pick his ball, there is also the penalty stroke for that, making the revised situation that he would be playing his 7th shot.

 

[Leftie]

Titleist 2 you say, absolutely no doubt it was his then, no one else plays those.


Your FC should be DQ'd for failing to mark up his ball so that he can identify it

Surely, failing to mark your ball is a hanging offence but unfortunately not a DQ or even a penalty under the rules of golf :mmm::mmm:

 

[palindromicbob]

Surely, failing to mark your ball is a hanging offence but unfortunately not a DQ or even a penalty under the rules of golf :mmm::mmm:

Ahh but as this shows failure to mark your ball (and therefore make it difficult to identify) can result in penalty. In this case 3 strokes.

 

[Slab]

Just as an aside...

Since the OP refers to PP's three times in the opening post does this have any bearing on the penalties, options & provisional ball status if its a team mate who lifts the provisional & not an FC?

(ok fair chance he means FC but just in case)

 

[Imurg]

I think you all made the right choice...
NR and move on....far too complicated for the first hole!

As an aside..why isn't marking your ball mandatory?
The rules say you SHOULD mark it, meaning you don't have to.
But if you don't mark it and lose sight of it at any time you can't be 100% sure its yours...
Just seems an instance where something that should be done needs to be changed to a must be done..

 

[ManinBlack]

When the player played the wrong ball, the original ball was in play. When he came back to sort the error, the original ball was still in play as time spent in playing a wrong ball does not count in the 5 minutes. He could have continued the search for the remainder of that 5 minutes and had he found it in time he could have played it (his 4th shot) and only then would his provisional be abandoned. The original was not found and so the provisional ball was in play.

Don't think this is right. Definitions in the rules say the ball is lost if not found within "5 minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it." Where does it say time spent playing a wrong ball doesn't count?

I really feel like e mailing the R & A with this because I don't think anyone knows the answer.

 

[backwoodsman]

Don't think this is right. Definitions in the rules say the ball is lost if not found within "5 minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it." Where does it say time spent playing a wrong ball doesn't count?

I really feel like e mailing the R & A with this because I don't think anyone knows the answer.

See decision 27/2

 

[rulefan]

Just as an aside...

Since the OP refers to PP's three times in the opening post does this have any bearing on the penalties, options & provisional ball status if its a team mate who lifts the provisional & not an FC?

(ok fair chance he means FC but just in case)

I assume you mean his partner. It make no difference, the player gets the penalty. If the player, his partner, either of their caddies or anyone asked by the player moves the ball (except under a rule), the player gets the penalty.

 

[ManinBlack]

I have e mailed the R & A with a link to this thread asking for a definitive answer.

 

[palindromicbob]

I have e mailed the R & A with a link to this thread asking for a definitive answer.

They already have a definitive answer.

As pointed out in decision 27/2

Q. In stroke play, a competitor searches for his ball for three minutes, finds a ball, plays it and then discovers he has played a wrong ball. He returns to the area from which the wrong ball was played and resumes search for his ball. How much time is he allowed for further search – two minutes or five minutes?

A. Two minutes – see Definition of “Lost Ball”.

 

[Colin L]

I have e mailed the R & A with a link to this thread asking for a definitive answer.

What a waste of R&A time. Decision 27/2 simply confirms what is explicit in the Definition which says, as part of the very Definition you have already quoted from,

Time spent in playing a wrong ball is not counted in the five-minute period allowed for search.


Perhaps you should read the rule book a bit more carefully and also trust the number of us contributing to the forum (some being qualified referees) who, whilst making the odd mistake, know what we are talking about.

 

[pogle]

I think you all made the right choice...
NR and move on....far too complicated for the first hole!

As an aside..why isn't marking your ball mandatory?
The rules say you SHOULD mark it, meaning you don't have to.
But if you don't mark it and lose sight of it at any time you can't be 100% sure its yours...
Just seems an instance where something that should be done needs to be changed to a must be done..

I see a lot of balls marked with a single black dot, although a single blue line seems to becoming more popular. Even when marking balls you can't be sure the marking is going to be any more unique than a Titleist Pro V1 number 2 (or whatever). And it's not just your immediate fellow competitors you need to worry about, it's everyone else out on the course.

I recently had to send two players back to their respective tees. They were playing on adjacent holes and had both driven into the same area - as they were playing with identically marked balls and they couldn't decide which ball was whose both balls were deemed lost. It turned out that one of the players had found the ball he was playing with the day before, and had been lost by the other player involved in the incident! The latter player was particularly peeved.

Insisting that players mark their balls is not foolproof.

 

[duncan mackie]

It turned out that one of the players had found the ball he was playing with the day before, and had been lost by the other player involved in the incident! The latter player was particularly peeved.

Insisting that players mark their balls is not foolproof.

It's the other player who should have been peeved! Fancy loosing a ball on a course and then playing another with the same number and marking on the same course.......who would be that silly???

All of which illustrates both the practical, and theoretical, flaws in anything other than at least a date and time stamping in addition to the additional markings....etc etc

otoh nature itself provides excellent one off id marks in the form of scuffs and scrapes that work well for me

 

[ManinBlack]

They already have a definitive answer.

As pointed out in decision 27/2

Q. In stroke play, a competitor searches for his ball for three minutes, finds a ball, plays it and then discovers he has played a wrong ball. He returns to the area from which the wrong ball was played and resumes search for his ball. How much time is he allowed for further search – two minutes or five minutes?

A. Two minutes – see Definition of “Lost Ball”.

Terribly sorry for wasting the R & A's time. Last time I did that I proved them wrong on an earlier decision. I don't have access to the Decisions, they don't do an Android version. I can't get that, although I could get a Japanese version of the rules for the iPhone.

We still don't have a definitive answer re. the fellow competitor picking up the player's ball. See what the R & A say.

 

[upsidedown]

USGA decisions http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-27/#d27-2

27-2b/9
Provisional Ball Lifted Subsequently Becomes Ball in Play

Q.In stroke play, a competitor, believing his tee shot might be lost, plays a provisional ball. He finds a ball he believes is his original ball, plays a stroke at it, picks up his provisional ball and then discovers that the ball he played was not his original ball, but rather a wrong ball. He resumes search for his original ball but cannot find it. What is the ruling?

A.The competitor lifted a ball which was to become the ball in play, i.e., the provisional ball – see Rule 27-2b. Accordingly, the competitor incurred a stroke-and-distance penalty under Rule 27-1 as a result of losing his original ball, a two-stroke penalty under Rule 15-3b for playing a wrong ball and a one-stroke penalty under Rule 18-2a for picking up his provisional ball. He is required to replace and play out the provisional ball. The competitor would be playing his seventh stroke.

27-2b/10

 

[ManinBlack]

USGA decisions http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-27/#d27-2

27-2b/9
Provisional Ball Lifted Subsequently Becomes Ball in Play

Q.In stroke play, a competitor, believing his tee shot might be lost, plays a provisional ball. He finds a ball he believes is his original ball, plays a stroke at it, picks up his provisional ball and then discovers that the ball he played was not his original ball, but rather a wrong ball. He resumes search for his original ball but cannot find it. What is the ruling?

A.The competitor lifted a ball which was to become the ball in play, i.e., the provisional ball – see Rule 27-2b. Accordingly, the competitor incurred a stroke-and-distance penalty under Rule 27-1 as a result of losing his original ball, a two-stroke penalty under Rule 15-3b for playing a wrong ball and a one-stroke penalty under Rule 18-2a for picking up his provisional ball. He is required to replace and play out the provisional ball. The competitor would be playing his seventh stroke.

27-2b/10

You need a bleedin' law degree to find your way around the rules!