Provisional or not a provisional?

[Deleted member 15344]

So you hit into a pond with your second shot ......what should you do then , no ones given the answer yet just cutting and pasting what Ive already read myself . Lets speak Layman's terms for those of us that arnt PGA officials that sleep with a copy of the rules book.
I still dont think I did anything wrong and nothing in the comments has convinced me although Im willing to be corrected.

A few questions

1. Did you declare the ball a provisional?

2. Did you find your ball in the hazard within 3 mins

If answer is yes to both of those then the provisional can no longer be played unless you are aware of the local rule being implemented at the club

And you either go back to the spot where you played the shot and play another or take a drop from the hazard

 

[YandaB]

Even in the pond and unplayable ?

You are playing the provisional in case it might be lost, not in case you were in the pond. As everyone is saying, t was not lost so the provisional is no longer required, you then play with the options available with the ball in the pond.

We do have a hole that uses the local rule as there is a definite chance of the ball getting through reeds on the far end of the pond but you can't see and it's a long walk back around.

 

[rulie]

So you hit into a pond with your second shot ......what should you do then , no ones given the answer yet just cutting and pasting what Ive already read myself . Lets speak Layman's terms for those of us that arnt PGA officials that sleep with a copy of the rules book.
I still dont think I did anything wrong and nothing in the comments has convinced me although Im willing to be corrected.

1. If you hit your ball into a penalty area, then you cannot hit a provisional ball (assuming the Model Local Rule has not been put in place by the club committee). If you play another ball from the original spot when you know your original ball is in a penalty area, that second ball is now your ball in play (regardless of whether or not you called it a provisional), and none of the other applicable options for a penalty area can be used (even if you find your original ball).
2. If you hit your ball into a penalty area and did not play again from the original spot, you can/should go forward and assess your options - play the original ball as it lies, or proceed under the penalty area Rule using one of those options under that Rule.
3. If you are uncertain that the ball you hit towards the penalty area is in the penalty area and/or that it might be lost outside the penalty area or might be out of bounds, you may then play a provisional ball from the original spot and go forward to search. This provisional ball would become your ball in play only if the original ball is lost outside a penalty area or is out of bounds.
4. If your original ball is found within three minutes of searching (regardless of where or how it lies), the provisional ball must be abandoned. If your original ball is in a penalty area, you must either play it as it lies or proceed under one of the options for the penalty area.

 

[Val]

So you hit into a pond with your second shot ......what should you do then , no ones given the answer yet just cutting and pasting what Ive already read myself . Lets speak Layman's terms for those of us that arnt PGA officials that sleep with a copy of the rules book.
I still dont think I did anything wrong and nothing in the comments has convinced me although Im willing to be corrected.

If you are virtually certain and all your group are virtually certain that the ball is in the water you don't need to hit a provisional. Your options are go forward and play under penalty or play a second ball from the original spot under stroke and distance which then becomes the ball in play.

 

[Colin L]

Slow down folks! It's hardly surprising Eddie is confused what with all the ifs and buts, speculative answers and even erroneous information swirling around. Let's go through it step by step and see if it can be clarified for him.

Eddie, you watched your second shot and were unsure whether it had gone into and stayed in the penalty area.or ended up elsewhere outside the penalty area. You then played another ball as a provisional. That was ok provided you thought your ball might not be in the PA and might be lost outside it . That might be because of long grass, bushes, trees or whatever or perhaps because you just didn't know nature of the ground. On that basis, when you established that your original was definitely in the PA, you had to abandon your provisional and continue with your original ball.

The alternative is that you knew that the ball was either in the PA or that you would find it outside it because you knew the ground where it could be was such that it couldn't hide a ball - e.g. short grass, no bushes, no trees. That would mean you did not have reason to think it might be lost outside the PA and so you were not allowed to play a provisional ball. The ball you thought was a provisional is actually in play as your 4th shot. The moment you played that ball, your original ball was lost. Good that you rescued it from the water but you couldn't continue with it.

To sum up: whether you were right in what you did depends entirely on whether you were entitled to play a provisional ball and you were only entitled to do so if you thought your ball might be lost outside the PA.

 

[rulefan]

Eddie
Just to stress Colin's use of the word might

you were only entitled to (play a provisional ball) if you thought your ball might be lost outside the PA.

If you were certain the ball was in the PA you cannot play a provisional.
However, given the situation you describe "it looked like it had caught the bank and gone in the water but we were all unsure" you were correct in playing a provisional.

But a provisional only becomes useful if you don't find your original. In which case your provisional becomes your ball in play at the cost of a 1 stroke penalty.
But if you find your ball anywhere (except out of bounds) as you did, then the provisional must be ignored and can be put back in your bag.

 

[salfordlad]

Eddie
Just to stress Colin's use of the word might

you were only entitled to (play a provisional ball) if you thought your ball might be lost outside the PA.

If you were certain the ball was in the PA you cannot play a provisional.
However, given the situation you describe "it looked like it had caught the bank and gone in the water but we were all unsure" you were correct in playing a provisional.

But a provisional only becomes useful if you don't find your original. In which case your provisional becomes your ball in play at the cost of a 1 stroke penalty.
But if you find your ball anywhere (except out of bounds) as you did, then the provisional must be ignored and can be put back in your bag.

I don't fully agree with this. The statement "it looked like it had caught the bank and gone in the water but we were all unsure" does not necessarily mean you were correct in playing a provisional. We need to distinguish two different scenarios. One is we were all unsure whether the ball might be lost outside the PA or was in the PA; the other is we were unsure whether the ball was in the PA and if not would be easily found outside the PA. The first would apply if there is ground that can hide the ball. The second would apply if there was no ground that could hide the ball outside the PA - the OP advised the PA is very close to the green, which can often means short cut ground around the PA and nowhere to hide a ball. In the first scenario the provisional is permitted, in the second it is not, and Colin and Rulie lay out the implications of those above.

 

[rulefan]

Point taken

 

[Foxholer]

I can't believe there's still discussion about this involving/referencing the OP.
The OP's assertion that he could play the Provisional, as opposed to the original, was, unfortunately for him, simply wrong! In fact, it was even unlikely that he was entitled to play a provisional in the first place - as, unless there were places where his ball could, indeed, be lost, he wasn't entitled to play one.

 

[nickjdavis]

There some confliction and Im even more confused
So I called it a provisional....ok....it wasnt a provisional then and it was a replacement as my ball was in the water , it was just that I didnt know it. Youre not telling me if you hit into a pond you have to go and look first then walk all the way back and drop as one of the three options? Im a player whos comfotable and more likely to get close from 130yds rather than 10yds thats why I hit the ball from the last point and wouldnt have hit a chip from the pond.

Absolutely yes.

The reason is that, if (as you actually did) you stick your "provisional" close to the hole, it would materially affect your choice of how to proceed with the hole should you then find your ball in the penalty area...whether to drop (either of the two options...2 club lengths or "in-line") or to go back to the tee.....lets face it....if you've already put a ball next to the hole you are hardly likely to be taking either of the dropping options.

Although you say your are comfortable with playing from 130yds and would have taken that option in any eventuality, there is a world of difference between playing from where you just played, thinking that there is still the possibility that your original (2nd in your case) shot might still be "dry", and playing from where you just played knowing it is your 4th shot (in your case).

 

[Steven Rules]

.....can you try and settle an argument

Sometimes it takes dozens of posts on this forum to reach consensus amongst ourselves, Eddie, let alone try and settle your arguments for you. But nevertheless....

...skirts the pond perilously too close for comfort and it looked like it had caught the bank and gone in the water but we were all unsure.

Not knowing for sure from where I was stood if it had bounced off the bank and into the water or not........

Not in Eddie's original post here, nor his ongoing staunch and incredulous defence of his actions in posts #5, #6, #18 and #19, has Eddie made even the slightest suggestion that that the ball might be lost outside the penalty area. His description of the geography in the area, which salfordlad also picked up on in #27, supoorts the notion that he had no thoughts that it might be lost outside the penalty area: '....a pond to the front and right of the green (red staked) with about 10yds between the pond and the green.'

In post #17 Eddie agreed that it was likely he had put a ball into play in accordance with (the spirit of) MLR B-3 Provisional Ball for Ball in a Penalty Area. I think it is highly unlikely this local rule was in place at this time.

In summary, Eddie played what he thought was a 'provisional' ball because he erroneously thought the rules allowed him to do so if his ball might be lost in a penalty area.

As I, and Foxholer (#29) and others have asserted, he had no entitlement to play a provisional ball. This being the case, Rule 18.3a is in force:

Rule 18.3a
......if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed and a ball played from where the previous stroke was made becomes the player’s ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 18.1).

The upshot is that the ball that Eddie knocked to within one inch - under stroke and distance rather than under provisional ball rules - is the ball in play.

The net effect on Eddie's scorecard, though, is the same as if he had been allowed to play a provisional (e.g. under MLR B-3) or had simply (correctly) announced he was putting another ball in play under 18.1 or 17.1d (1).

As it turns out, Eddie sort of 'nailed it' in #15 - but for all the wrong reasons.

So I called it a provisional....ok....it wasnt a provisional then and it was a replacement as my ball was in the water , it was just that I didnt know it.

Jim8flog also picked this up in #8.

But - Eddie - back to your original argument with your mate. He was right. If you find your original ball within the three minute search period (even if it is in the penalty area) you must abandon your provisional. Although, in this instance, we have established that you hadn't played a provisional.

 

[rulefan]

we have established that you hadn't played a provisional.

I'm not sure that it has been established. You and others have posited that the ball could have been 'not lost' outside the PA and although I agree that may be so, Eddie has not yet confirmed that was the situation.

 

[Swango1980]

So, in a nutshell, the OP was likely wrong to play a provisional, assuming the only reason they played it was because it might have gone into the penalty area. Therefore, the "provisional" was not actually their provisional, but their ball in play. This technically worked out well for them, because the new ball in play was hit next to the pin.

However, where it would have backfired is if they hit their "provisional" into a bad position. Because, they could not then choose to ignore the provisional, and take a drop by the penalty area where their first ball went.

Basically, the purpose of the rule is to stop players hitting a ball into a penalty area, playing a provisional and then essentially having a choice as to whether they continue with the provisional, or if that didn't work out well, just take a drop at the penalty area where they hit the original ball. If that condition didn't exist, it would make sense to just hit a provisional every time you hit a ball into the penalty area, just in case you hit a great shot (and if not, at least give you another practice shot to to sort your swing out)

 

[Foxholer]

...
Basically, the purpose of the rule is to stop players hitting a ball into a penalty area, playing a provisional and then essentially having a choice as to whether they continue with the provisional, or if that didn't work out well, just take a drop at the penalty area where they hit the original ball....

No! The purpose of the rule is to handle a potentially lost ball 'efficiently'!

 

[Bunkermagnet]

What I don’t understand, is that if there is thinking the ball is in the pond, why play a provisional anyway?
The ball is wet, so you take the required drop under penalty and on the green for 3.

 

[Swango1980]

No! The purpose of the rule is to handle a potentially lost ball 'efficiently'!

To clarify, I wasn't talking about the purpose of the Provisional Ball rule in general. I was talking about the specific element as to why a Provisional Ball cannot be played if the player knows that it could only be lost within a Penalty Area.

 

[Steven Rules]

I'm not sure that it has been established. You and others have posited that the ball could have been 'not lost' outside the PA and although I agree that may be so, Eddie has not yet confirmed that was the situation.

I respect and acknowledge your viewpoint but we may have to 'agree to disagree' on this.

Eddie has made numerous posts consistent with him erroneously playing a 'provisional' ball solely because he thought his ball might be lost in a penalty area, not potentially lost somewhere else. Despite people pointing out to him on multiple occasions that he was wrong to do this, he has not sought to tell us - in any of his multiple posts so far - that there was a possibility of his ball being lost outside the penalty area. Indeed, he has doubled down to defend and justify his initial, erroneous thought process.

If that is all that we disagree on about this scenario then I will sleep quite comfortably tonight.

 

[Foxholer]

To clarify, I wasn't talking about the purpose of the Provisional Ball rule in general. I was talking about the specific element as to why a Provisional Ball cannot be played if the player knows that it could only be lost within a Penalty Area.

Again, the purpose of the Rule is to handle a potentially lost ball 'efficiently'. That's why its part of Rule 18 (Stroke-and-Distance Relief, Ball Lost or Out of Bounds, Provisional Ball)
and not Rule 17 (Penalty Areas). The wording, of course, excludes playing a provisional ball if the 1st is in a PA. To speculate why that is is...pure, and irrelevant, speculation!

 

[Swango1980]

Again, the purpose of the Rule is to handle a potentially lost ball 'efficiently'. That's why its part of Rule 18 (Stroke-and-Distance Relief, Ball Lost or Out of Bounds, Provisional Ball)
and not Rule 17 (Penalty Areas). The wording, of course, excludes playing a provisional ball if the 1st is in a PA. To speculate why that is is...pure, and irrelevant, speculation!

Well then, we should definitely lobby to extend the Provisional Ball rule to allow one to be played if you think the ball is lost within a penalty area.

There have been many times I've hit a ball towards a penalty area, and I am not certain it has just cleared it, or ended up in it. On many of those occasions, I have genuinely wished to play a provisional in case it has gone in, purely to save time. Obviously, if I then find the original on the other side, I would then play that. However, I obviously cannot do this. So, I have to go and check, and then if it turns out it is in the penalty area, I then have to waste a load of time going back, dropping and then playing the ball.

A great wasted of time, considering I'd have happily played a provisional in the first place. It is true that the R&A have not directly told me the conversations that went on when deciding to not allow a provisional to be played when the original could only be lost in a PA. Therefore, if my speculation is unfounded, I think it would be reasonable for the R&A to consider allowing a provisional for the situation described above in their next update.

 

[Foxholer]

[QUOTE="Swango1980, post: 2522654, member: 26510"]Well then, we should definitely lobby to extend the Provisional Ball rule to allow one to be played if you think the ball is lost within a penalty area.

There have been many times I've hit a ball towards a penalty area, and I am not certain it has just cleared it, or ended up in it. On many of those occasions, I have genuinely wished to play a provisional in case it has gone in, purely to save time. Obviously, if I then find the original on the other side, I would then play that. However, I obviously cannot do this. So, I have to go and check, and then if it turns out it is in the penalty area, I then have to waste a load of time going back, dropping and then playing the ball.

A great wasted of time, considering I'd have happily played a provisional in the first place. It is true that the R&A have not directly told me the conversations that went on when deciding to not allow a provisional to be played when the original could only be lost in a PA. Therefore, if my speculation is unfounded, I think it would be reasonable for the R&A to consider allowing a provisional for the situation described above in their next update.[/QUOTE]
I disagree!
You have other (in fact, 'cheaper') options, that don't require returning to the tee, for 'lost in PA' - as opposed to simply 'lost'.