Provisional or not a provisional?

[salfordlad]

I promised myself I wouldn't engage further on this thread until we heard again from Eddie. But....seriously???? Penalised for playing a practice stroke????? Some learned rules folks have spent a fair bit of effort trying to convey the key principles in this scenario but it is as if you haven't read some of the key posts in this thread.

Have a read of Rule 18.3a. Does that alter your understanding that I have quoted above?

Rule 18.3a
......if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed and a ball played from where the previous stroke was made becomes the player’s ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 18.1).

Remember, the nice part of beating your head against the wall is it feels so good when you stop!

 

[Colin L]

Perhaps a moderator will do the decent thing and close the thread?

 

[Swango1980]

Either way, op was wrong to proceed as he did :
- if the meaning was that there was a perceived possibility that the ball might be lost outside the PA, having been found whether inside or outside the PA, it had to be played. The one by the hole cannot be played.
- if there wasn't a perceived possibility that the ball might be lost outside the PA, then they should not have hit a provisional. What would have happened then if they had been informed of the correct rule : they are penalised for playing a practice stroke, and then must either find the ball in the PA and play on with it, or not finding it, go back and play a 3rd ball ? The second ball still cannot be played.

I was about to reply to your response to me by explaining you are blatantly incorrect in your second half, although it seems Steven Rules beat me to it.

If the player claimed to hit a provisional, but was not entitled to, their provisional actually becomes the ball in play. I've no idea how you determined they are penalised for a practice stroke?

 

[Swango1980]

This discussion seems to have got comp!ex. If I don't actually see the ball go into water or it's not kovc that it's in then I play a provisional. If I don't find it then it's lost and I continue with my provisional. That seems straightforward.

That is straight forward, as in your case you felt it could be lost outside the PA.

However, I've known many players in past knowing that if ball is physically lost, the only place it could be lost is in a PA. They say they'll hit a provisional, yet they fully intend to then take a drop by the water when they get there, especially if provisional was bad. Now, before they hit the provisional, I always ask them to clarify if they think the ball.could be lost outside the PA. If they say yes, fair enough. If they say no, I explain they cannot hit a provisional.

 

[Steven Rules]

Perhaps a moderator will do the decent thing and close the thread?

Not until we have heard back from Eddie......please.

 

[Backsticks]

I promised myself I wouldn't engage further on this thread until we heard again from Eddie. But....seriously???? Penalised for playing a practice stroke????? Some learned rules folks have spent a fair bit of effort trying to convey the key principles in this scenario but it is as if you haven't read some of the key posts in this thread.

Have a read of Rule 18.3a. Does that alter your understanding that I have quoted above?

Rule 18.3a
......if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed and a ball played from where the previous stroke was made becomes the player’s ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 18.1).

Thanks. Yes I read that but interpreted it differently. But will go with your version on rereading.
I was taking it that he must play a ball that is intended and announced NOT a provisional to be in play. Having announced, incorrectly, as he is not entitled to do so that that stroke was a provisional, he must then play correctly, another one, NOT announced as a provisional, and so according to that rule.
I was assuming that no more than one can play a second ball and announce retrospectively on seeing the outcome that it was provisional, the same would apply here - that a ball played incorrectly as 'provisional' cannot be then taken as not actually provisional.

 

[Colin L]

Not until we have heard back from Eddie......please.

Good point - stay hopeful.

 

[Colin L]

Thanks. Yes I read that but interpreted it differently. But will go with your version on rereading.
I was taking it that he must play a ball that is intended and announced NOT a provisional to be in play. Having announced, incorrectly, as he is not entitled to do so that that stroke was a provisional, he must then play correctly, another one, NOT announced as a provisional, and so according to that rule.
I was assuming that no more than one can play a second ball and announce retrospectively on seeing the outcome that it was provisional, the same would apply here - that a ball played incorrectly as 'provisional' cannot be then taken as not actually provisional.

Sorry to see you're still struggling with all of this. You most certainly don't play yet another ball because you didn't announce that you weren't playing a provisional But bon courage, it's simpler than you think.

If after a shot your ball is known or virtually certain to be in a penalty area,

• you are not allowed to play a provisional ball;
• if you play another ball from where you played that shot, it cannot be a provisional;
• you don't have say it isn't a provisional;
• in fact, you don't have to say anything;
• if you mistakenly say it is a provisional, nothing changes - it's not a provisional;
• as soon as you put a ball in play under stroke and distance, your original ball is lost (even if you find it later).

 

[Imurg]

Eddie's sitting at home, rubbing his hands together, thinking...Now, what can I get them on next...?

 

[salfordlad]

If after a shot your ball is known or virtually certain to be in a penalty area,

• you are not allowed to play a provisional ball;

This is getting into the weeds a bit, one for the true nerds. And I'm not being critical of your overall post, I think it is a helpful contribution that assists Backsticks to untangle him/herself.

But I think 18.3a challenges part of that precise subset of your post I quote above. If I'm on the tee and I hit one towards water and believe, on the basis of the information to hand at that point, that I am 95 per cent certain the ball is in the PA, I see nothing in the Rules that says I cannot hit a provisional. To the contrary, 18.3a states "If a ball might be lost outside a penalty area......the player may play another ball provisionally...". 18.3a precludes a provisional "if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area....". So I would argue that the player is free to play a provisional and proceed. But the rub here is if the process of search or additional information gathering as the player proceeds towards the original "locks in" a final conclusion of KVC (or if ball is found in the PA) then the provisional ball immediately changes status to wrong ball.

Consequently, my minor adaptation to your first sentence I quote above is to delete "or virtually certain".

The argument I put above is the only way I can reconcile the tension that exists between 18.3a - which relates to commissioning a provisional - and 18.3c - that tells me that a provisional must be abandoned if there is KVC the original ball is in a PA. In my ideal world, RBs would decide precisely what they want and resolve this current tension but in the meantime, consistent with the primary rule 18.3a, I'm going to stress the issue to any player that if they think the ball could be lost outside the PA, then playing a provisional ball is legitimate, but if they ultimately conclude (KVC) it is in the PA, it must subsequently be abandoned.

 

[rulefan]

But if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed.

ie it is impossible to be lost outside the PA

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This is getting into the weeds a bit, one for the true nerds. And I'm not being critical of your overall post, I think it is a helpful contribution that assists Backsticks to untangle him/herself.

But I think 18.3a challenges part of that precise subset of your post I quote above. If I'm on the tee and I hit one towards water and believe, on the basis of the information to hand at that point, that I am 95 per cent certain the ball is in the PA, I see nothing in the Rules that says I cannot hit a provisional. To the contrary, 18.3a states "If a ball might be lost outside a penalty area......the player may play another ball provisionally...". 18.3a precludes a provisional "if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area....". So I would argue that the player is free to play a provisional and proceed. But the rub here is if the process of search or additional information gathering as the player proceeds towards the original "locks in" a final conclusion of KVC (or if ball is found in the PA) then the provisional ball immediately changes status to wrong ball.

Consequently, my minor adaptation to your first sentence I quote above is to delete "or virtually certain".

The argument I put above is the only way I can reconcile the tension that exists between 18.3a - which relates to commissioning a provisional - and 18.3c - that tells me that a provisional must be abandoned if there is KVC the original ball is in a PA. In my ideal world, RBs would decide precisely what they want and resolve this current tension but in the meantime, consistent with the primary rule 18.3a, I'm going to stress the issue to any player that if they think the ball could be lost outside the PA, then playing a provisional ball is legitimate, but if they ultimately conclude (KVC) it is in the PA, it must subsequently be abandoned.

I am thinking that by definition of KVC, a ball cannot both be KVC to be in a penalty area and 'might be lost outside a penalty area'. I know in any scenario that logically both can be true, but by a player agreeing that his ball is KVC to be in a penalty area he is than also excluding the possibility (in the context of the rules) that his ball may be lost outside a penalty area.

 

[Colin L]

@salfordlad
This nerd is heading out for lunch with friends which I'm sure will be a great deal more digestible than your post.

I will chew over what you say later on.

 

[Swango1980]

I am thinking that by definition of KVC, a ball cannot both be KVC to be in a penalty area and 'might be lost outside a penalty area'. I know in any scenario that logically both can be true, but by a player agreeing that his ball is KVC to be in a penalty area he is than also excluding the possibility (in the context of the rules) that his ball may be lost outside a penalty area.

I guess this could be an issue if taken completely literally, it could cause issues?

So, a player could be virtually certain the ball is in the PA if they do not find it, and take relief under what is allowed for PAs. However, before doing so, they could technically claim there is a very small chance the ball could be lost somewhere else? For example, they might say there could be a 0.00000000000000000000000000000001% chance that their ball was moved by some aquatic creature, or fell down a potential hidden some underwater drain and ended up exiting the PA in some unseen area that one could never think of. Maybe they could even claim this, even if they saw the ball splash into the PA. They use this reasoning to hit a provisional, even though they will then still be able to claim it is in the PA afterwards with 95%+ certainty.

I'm guessing any qualified referee would dismiss their claim? However, under the wording of the rule, would they have a mathematical argument?

 

[rulefan]

I am thinking that by definition of KVC, a ball cannot both be KVC to be in a penalty area and 'might be lost outside a penalty area'. I know in any scenario that logically both can be true, but by a player agreeing that his ball is KVC to be in a penalty area he is than also excluding the possibility (in the context of the rules) that his ball may be lost outside a penalty area.

18.3a When Provisional Ball Is Allowed makes no mention of KVC. The only criterion is if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area.
There are no decimals in only

 

[salfordlad]

18.3a When Provisional Ball Is Allowed makes no mention of KVC. The only criterion is if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area.
There are no decimals in only

Precisely. 18.3a is not a rule for which KVC has any relevance.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I thought I was pretty clear about when I could play a provisional but I am afraid that this thread has utterly confused me and I no longer have that clarity in my mind. Normally, rules discussions on here are very useful, this one with all the ifs, buts and maybes is an exception to that normal.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I thought I was pretty clear about when I could play a provisional but I am afraid that this thread has utterly confused me and I no longer have that clarity in my mind. Normally, rules discussions on here are very useful, this one with all the ifs, buts and maybes is an exception to that normal.

“Most” will play a provisional when they feel the ball is lost in the general area.

I haven’t seen many if any take a provisional if they feel their is a chance it’s gone in a hazard - they will instead just rake relief at the hazard

We have one hole where it’s red stakes then after ten yards the boundary marker - most take a provisional there because there is a chance it’s gone OOB

I very much doubt anyone will ever have any issue with someone ever playing a provisional because we all know it helps pace of play and stops the walk back

It’s quite staggering how the thread ended up this way

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

“Most” will play a provisional when they feel the ball is lost in the general area.

I haven’t seen many if any take a provisional if they feel their is a chance it’s gone in a hazard - they will instead just rake relief at the hazard

We have one hole where it’s red stakes then after ten yards the boundary marker - most take a provisional there because there is a chance it’s gone OOB

I very much doubt anyone will ever have any issue with someone ever playing a provisional because we all know it helps pace of play and stops the walk back

It’s quite staggering how the thread ended up this way

Where it has helped (I think) is that in the past if I thought my ball might have gone into water but would otherwise be very unlikely to be lost, I think I would have played a provisional - just in case. And I would have done that without thinking too deeply about whether or not a was allowed to lay a provisional.

Now I know that in my scenario I am not to permitted to do so. If it was the case that my ball might be in the penalty area but could well lost outside of the penalty area - then I would be allowed to play a provisional.

If the above is incorrect then I am truly baffled. But tbh and trying to think about this, I am not sure quite what I have done in the past - maybe I have always done the right thing.

 

[Backsticks]

• if you mistakenly say it is a provisional, nothing changes - it's not a provisional;

Thanks. Happily stand corrected. And accept the line above as sensible interpretation. But it is not stated as explicitly in the rules as you put it. I was regarding stating it was a provisional as a breaking of the rule itself.