Provisional or not a provisional?

[rulefan]

I respect and acknowledge your viewpoint but we may have to 'agree to disagree' on this.

Thanks

Eddie has made numerous posts consistent with him erroneously playing a 'provisional' ball solely because he thought his ball might be lost in a penalty area, not potentially lost somewhere else.

But I an not convinced that Eddie has made it clear. I know why you and I have differing views on that aspect only but I would like to hear how Eddie saw it.

 

[Orikoru]

Having knocked the provisional stiff you really shouldn't have looked that hard for the original one. Your mate was right, that once found your provisional is now irrelevant. You should have had a quick glance around the pond and then just moved on.

 

[Colin L]

Again, the purpose of the Rule is to handle a potentially lost ball 'efficiently'. That's why its part of Rule 18 (Stroke-and-Distance Relief, Ball Lost or Out of Bounds, Provisional Ball)
and not Rule 17 (Penalty Areas). The wording, of course, excludes playing a provisional ball if the 1st is in a PA. To speculate why that is is...pure, and irrelevant, speculation!

Really? You'll have to indulge me then while I try some pure and irrelevant speculation. Consider Rule 17.1c which specifies what you do if your ball is not found but is known or virtually certain to be in a penalty area: that is, you have the same options as for a ball that is found.[17.1d] If you play a shot and know or are virtually certain your ball is in a penalty area, it doesn't matter whether you find it or not, you are going to follow the same procedure. You are going to take penalty area relief. There is no doubt about what you have to do and so there is nothing that you can provisionally do. A provisional ball is played where there is uncertainty. There is none in this situation.

 

[Foxholer]

Really? You'll have to indulge me then while I try some pure and irrelevant speculation. Consider Rule 17.1c which specifies what you do if your ball is not found but is known or virtually certain to be in a penalty area: that is, you have the same options as for a ball that is found.[17.1d] If you play a shot and know or are virtually certain your ball is in a penalty area, it doesn't matter whether you find it or not, you are going to follow the same procedure. You are going to take penalty area relief. There is no doubt about what you have to do and so there is nothing that you can provisionally do. A provisional ball is played where there is uncertainty. There is none in this situation.

My post was purely about 'playing a provisional'. So your post is indeed as you stated 'irrelevant'.
Just to clarify, the last 2 sentences of my post were referring to Rule 18.
You are, as normal, correct though.

 

[Colin L]

Ah well, my apologies for being irrelevant.

I genuinely thought that when you wrote The wording, of course, excludes playing a provisional ball if the 1st is in a PA. To speculate why that is is...pure, and irrelevant, speculation! you actually meant that it you thought it would be irrelevant to speculate on why Rule 18 excluded playing a provisional ball if the original ball is in a penalty area as if were an arbitrary matter with no real explanation. Silly of me.

 

[Foxholer]

Ah well, my apologies for being irrelevant.

I genuinely thought that when you wrote The wording, of course, excludes playing a provisional ball if the 1st is in a PA. To speculate why that is is...pure, and irrelevant, speculation! you actually meant that it you thought it would be irrelevant to speculate on why Rule 18 excluded playing a provisional ball if the original ball is in a penalty area as if were an arbitrary matter with no real explanation. Silly of me.

I'm not certain whether you are being sarcastic or not - that's one of the problems with written cf spoken dialogue. But FWIW The Rules rather, and perhaps surprisingly, are quite elegant in the way the handle what can be complicated situations. Hockey, for example (at least when I was an Umpire) was a noticeably larger Rule Book, for a basically simpler game. And the Rugby Rule book and associated paraphernalia is considerably larger and more complicated - even after major re-work.
Simply put though...Rule 17 is about PAs and makes no mention of provisional. Rule 18 is about 'Stroke-and-Distance Relief, Ball Lost or Out of Bounds, Provisional Ball' and excludes balls in PAs from the Provisional Ball section.

 

[Steven Rules]

Thanks

But I an not convinced that Eddie has made it clear. I know why you and I have differing views on that aspect only but I would like to hear how Eddie saw it.

Eddie - where are you? We have settled your argument with your mate. Now it is your turn to end the speculation here.

Did you play that provisional ball because (a) you thought there was a chance your original might be lost up by the green somewhere outside the penalty area as well as a chance it might be in the penalty area, or (b) you thought it could be in the penalty area and (if lost) the only place it could be lost was in the penalty area and you mistakenly thought it was permitted to play a provisional ball for a ball that might be lost in a penalty area?

(a) or (b)?

If (a) then you should have abandoned the provisional when you found the original in the penalty area within the three minute search period. When you proceeded to play the one inch tap-in provisional ball you played a wrong ball. As you (presumably) did not correct the error before teeing off on the next hole you should have been DQ. But it wasn't a total disaster - at least you fished your original out of the water.

If (b) then you have been misguided and clumsy but your actions are contemplated in the rules and are permissible. Tap in for a 5, write it on your scorecard and move to the next hole. Added bonus is you fished your original out of the water.

(a) or (b)?

 

[Ethan]

We had a issue this morning with one, can you try and settle an argument?

Imagine a par 4 with a pond to the front and right of the green (red staked) with about 10yds between the pond and the green.

So I teed off ok and had 130yds to the green but my second shot goes to the right and skirts the pond perilously too close for comfort and it looked like it had caught the bank and gone in the water but we were all unsure.

Not knowing for sure from where I was stood if it had bounced off the bank and into the water or not I dropped another ball in the same place as I hit the last one and called a "provisional ball" . I proceeded to hit the "provisional" to less than an inch from the hole! ..... typical, I know.

So we stolled down to the pond to look for my first ball and there was no sign of it. On further investigation and looking in the pond and with the aid of my playing partners ball retrever we fished out a ball and what turned out to be my ball out of two feet of water , it was my origional ball and yes unfortunately it was in the pond.

My mate says I should have THEN (just because the ball was evetually found) disregarded my "provisional ball" and THEN taken one of the three options,
A. a drop out (two club length) ,
B. drop back in line where it crossed the pond
C.go back to the place where I hit it last!

I said no and disagreed as Id al played a provisional already from back in the fairway when I suspected it was in the pond. The matter that my provisional was now at the hole side was irrelevent and I could and should continue to play it .

Just because we did actually find the origional ball it was of no consiquence as it was under water and unplayable?

Shoulda gone up to the provo and tapped it in. End of story then.

 

[Colin L]

I'm not certain whether you are being sarcastic or not - that's one of the problems with written cf spoken dialogue. But FWIW The Rules rather, and perhaps surprisingly, are quite elegant in the way the handle what can be complicated situations. Hockey, for example (at least when I was an Umpire) was a noticeably larger Rule Book, for a basically simpler game. And the Rugby Rule book and associated paraphernalia is considerably larger and more complicated - even after major re-work.
Simply put though...Rule 17 is about PAs and makes no mention of provisional. Rule 18 is about 'Stroke-and-Distance Relief, Ball Lost or Out of Bounds, Provisional Ball' and excludes balls in PAs from the Provisional Ball section.

I've really no idea what point you're making but I'm not going to pursue it. Not for the first time I've made the mistake of deploying irony and have no wish to annoy anyone.

 

[Foxholer]

I've really no idea what point you're making but I'm not going to pursue it. Not for the first time I've made the mistake of deploying irony and have no wish to annoy anyone.

No problem. Your Rules knowledge is far superior to mine. Irony (a much better description than 'sarcastic/sarcasm' can be too subtle in text - without and other smilies.

 

[jim8flog]

You. An play a provisional anytime you like
Even if your first is in the middle of the fairway sitting pretty

Are you confusing yourself with taking an unplayable ball.

 

[Backsticks]

Thanks

But I an not convinced that Eddie has made it clear. I know why you and I have differing views on that aspect only but I would like to hear how Eddie saw it.

He doesn't say it was in the penalty area. He says it was not clear if had gone into the water, and so doubt as to its final location. Therefore playing a provisional was fine. Finding the first ball meant it was still in play, the provisional was out of play and so incorrect to play it. One of the options with the ball from the water was surely correct ? It what I would have done, and imagine anyone I play with, would have done the same with not even a hint of a question mark over doing so.
The only legal way to play the provisional is not to look for, or even in the direction of, and warn playing partners the same, the first ball.

 

[Swango1980]

He doesn't say it was in the penalty area. He says it was not clear if had gone into the water, and so doubt as to its final location. Therefore playing a provisional was fine. Finding the first ball meant it was still in play, the provisional was out of play and so incorrect to play it. One of the options with the ball from the water was surely correct ? It what I would have done, and imagine anyone I play with, would have done the same with not even a hint of a question mark over doing so.
The only legal way to play the provisional is not to look for, or even in the direction of, and warn playing partners the same, the first ball.

The way I read the OP, it seemed to suggest that if the ball was lost, it would only have been lost in the PA. It sounded like he either expected it to be around the edge of the PA, or in the PA. There appeared to be no mention of the ball potentially being lost anywhere else, such as long grass just outside the PA.

If that is true, a provisional ball is not permitted.

However, if there was reason to believe it was lost anywhere else, then a provisional is allowed.

How things should have proceeded depends on the answer to that question.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This discussion seems to have got comp!ex. If I don't actually see the ball go into water or it's not kovc that it's in then I play a provisional. If I don't find it then it's lost and I continue with my provisional. That seems straightforward.

 

[Backsticks]

The way I read the OP, it seemed to suggest that if the ball was lost, it would only have been lost in the PA. It sounded like he either expected it to be around the edge of the PA, or in the PA. There appeared to be no mention of the ball potentially being lost anywhere else, such as long grass just outside the PA.

If that is true, a provisional ball is not permitted.

However, if there was reason to believe it was lost anywhere else, then a provisional is allowed.

How things should have proceeded depends on the answer to that question.

Either way, op was wrong to proceed as he did :
- if the meaning was that there was a perceived possibility that the ball might be lost outside the PA, having been found whether inside or outside the PA, it had to be played. The one by the hole cannot be played.
- if there wasn't a perceived possibility that the ball might be lost outside the PA, then they should not have hit a provisional. What would have happened then if they had been informed of the correct rule : they are penalised for playing a practice stroke, and then must either find the ball in the PA and play on with it, or not finding it, go back and play a 3rd ball ? The second ball still cannot be played.

 

[Foxholer]

He doesn't say it was in the penalty area. He says it was not clear if had gone into the water, and so doubt as to its final location. Therefore playing a provisional was fine. Finding the first ball meant it was still in play, the provisional was out of play and so incorrect to play it. One of the options with the ball from the water was surely correct ? It what I would have done, and imagine anyone I play with, would have done the same with not even a hint of a question mark over doing so.
The only legal way to play the provisional is not to look for, or even in the direction of, and warn playing partners the same, the first ball.

That would be the case were it not for the OP's seemingly (mistaken) concept that playing a provisional for a ball lost in a PA was legit. It would only be legit if there was a possibility/likelihood if it was lost outside the PA. Confirmation of his thoughts would be the only to resolve that.

Consequent to the illegal provisional (if it was illegal) though...Does that ball become the ball in play? Or what is the additional penalty for the illegal stroke?

 

[Foxholer]

Either way, op was wrong to proceed as he did :
- if the meaning was that there was a perceived possibility that the ball might be lost outside the PA, having been found whether inside or outside the PA, it had to be played. The one by the hole cannot be played.
- if there wasn't a perceived possibility that the ball might be lost outside the PA, then they should not have hit a provisional. What would have happened then if they had been informed of the correct rule : they are penalised for playing a practice stroke, and then must either find the ball in the PA and play on with it, or not finding it, go back and play a 3rd ball ? The second ball still cannot be played.

Those 2 aren't the only options.

 

[Backsticks]

Those 2 aren't the only options.

Quite right. He can proceed under the other ball lost in pa such as drop back in line, etc.

 

[salfordlad]

He doesn't say it was in the penalty area. He says it was not clear if had gone into the water, and so doubt as to its final location. Therefore playing a provisional was fine.

I'll attempt to summarise the nuance that confuses many experienced golfers. Those bolded words are not correct. Doubt about the location is a necessary precondition for playing a provisional legitimately, but by itself it is not sufficient. So in the case of a hole layout that has penalty area generously marked with zero rough outside the PA and no possibility of losing a ball that is not in the PA - a common scenario in, for example, some green-side ponds and on increasing numbers of fairway/rough borders since Jan 2019 - the player aware of this lay of the land who nonetheless declares 'provisional' and plays again from the original spot has actually played under stroke and distance. On the other hand, if you are on a course you do not know, then there is every likelihood you do not know that there is nowhere surrounding the PA that can hide a ball - so playing a provisional then is legitimate. The distinction relates to what you know.

 

[Steven Rules]

- if there wasn't a perceived possibility that the ball might be lost outside the PA, then they should not have hit a provisional. What would have happened then if they had been informed of the correct rule : they are penalised for playing a practice stroke, and then must either find the ball in the PA and play on with it, or not finding it, go back and play a 3rd ball ? The second ball still cannot be played.

I promised myself I wouldn't engage further on this thread until we heard again from Eddie. But....seriously???? Penalised for playing a practice stroke????? Some learned rules folks have spent a fair bit of effort trying to convey the key principles in this scenario but it is as if you haven't read some of the key posts in this thread.

Have a read of Rule 18.3a. Does that alter your understanding that I have quoted above?

Rule 18.3a
......if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed and a ball played from where the previous stroke was made becomes the player’s ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 18.1).