Post Office - Horizon scandal

[Swinglowandslow]

you ask why

Answer- because that is the way the law works.

As I understand it

Pleading innocent leaves a path open for the verdict to be overturned on appeal if there is found to be other evidence supporting the innocent plea as have many of the convictions using this route.

There is no such path in law once a guilty plea (however wrongly given) was given. This would have been the reason that a lot could not join the class action.

I do agree there would have been many who fell foul of the computer system but I would suspect there were a few on the fiddle and got caught so knowingly pleaded guilty.

Criminal law, yes. ? but civil law, ( talking about compensation here), I see no reason why the P.O. should not do the right thing now , and compensate those "c aught by the computer" It is those we are talking about.
As for those who pleaded guilty, they would have been pressured to do so by many saying the computer was infallible and there is no way their knowledge of their innocence would prevent conviction.
In the hope for a lighter sentence many may have been advised to so,plead.
And before you say"I wouldn't, if I hadn't been guilty", it is easy to say but there are many serious considerations in such a God awful situation.

 

[Foxholer]

Here's the info from the Inquiry available so far...
https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/publications
FWIW. It includes/refers to both Post Office Ltd and Royal Mail Group (Ltd) and predecessors.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Mr Bates v The Post office.
Brilliant bit of active telly by ITV.

My wife was a sub Postmistress during this time and recalls many problems balancing the books at the end of every day.
Her main problem was refusing much larger PO balancing funds than was needed for small village PO's.

It is also interesting to note that the 'main' PO bank at that time was Alliance and Leicester who took over the PO owned Giro bank.
Many elder PO operators would have joined A&L seamlessly from Giro.

This story will drag on and on and the PO and successive Governments will not feature well.
Ed Davey now in his 'I new nothing about it' role
Aye right Ed.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Mr Bates v The Post office.
Brilliant bit of active telly by ITV.

My wife was a sub Postmistress during this time and recalls many problems balancing the books at the end of every day.
Her main problem was refusing much larger PO balancing funds than was needed for small village PO's.

It is also interesting to note that the 'main' PO bank at that time was Alliance and Leicester who took over the PO owned Giro bank.
Many elder PO operators would have joined A&L seamlessly from Giro.

This story will drag on and on and the PO and successive Governments will not feature well.
Ed Davey now in his 'I new nothing about it' role
Aye right Ed.

HID worked for Fujitsu at the time (HR and not on the Post Office account) but once the issues were discovered Fujitsu apparently did all they could to keep their name well away from it and blame it all on the Post Office and their implementation/running of the software. Brilliantly engaging bit of TV and a travesty so many lives ruined or lost and so many waiting for convictions to be quashed. Too little too late for some of course

 

[pompeybandit]

Post Office Scandal: Strip Paula Vennells of her CBE
Not sure whether these petitions have any sway in getting this to happen.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Post Office Scandal: Strip Paula Vennells of her CBE
Not sure whether these petitions have any sway in getting this to happen.

I wonder what views the Church of England has on her actions. Is she still preaching love and kindness.
Ed Davey admits his advisors took him for a fool.

The clever detectives say 'follow the money' so why can't they tell us where all the fraudulently stolen money [by means of a payback] from the postmaster/mistress's went.
There must have been a suspended account where it sat, and there must be a record of it.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Post Office Scandal: Strip Paula Vennells of her CBE
Not sure whether these petitions have any sway in getting this to happen.

During the last week it went from 1,000 signatures to 20,000 in two days.
Then from 20,000 to 350,000 in two days.
Yesterday reports are that there are over 600,000 signatures.

 

[AmandaJR]

Over 710,000 now. Hope she's at least aware of so many people's opinion of her.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I'm fairly sure she is aware, but will she care?

It seems to me that she cares about one thing only.
Her only concern is how this matter will affect her.
I view her apology as self serving.

 

[AmandaJR]

I'm fairly sure she is aware, but will she care?

It seems to me that she cares about one thing only.
Her only concern is how this matter will affect her.
I view her apology as self serving.

Clearly skin as thick as a rhino.

 

[Hobbit]

Over 710,000 now. Hope she's at least aware of so many people's opinion of her.

739,000. Twitter feeds are full of this issue. Most of my page is Tweets & reTweets of this. I’ve never seen such an uproar.

 

[Mudball]

it has taken a tv series to make the nation realise what has happened. The tory MP comes out smelling well - and good work if he really supported the case. It also shows the shocking lack of scrutiny in the higher echelons of power.. CEO gets CBE and then moves onto other directorships and fat pensions, companies going unpunished, politicians turning blind eye. I wont be surprised it the present govt says the 'whole thing started under labour' and then jump on fast tracking compensations.

It is a travesty of justice... God help everyone who was affected.

 

[Billysboots]

it has taken a tv series to make the nation realise what has happened. The tory MP comes out smelling well - and good work if he really supported the case. It also shows the shocking lack of scrutiny in the higher echelons of power.. CEO gets CBE and then moves onto other directorships and fat pensions, companies going unpunished, politicians turning blind eye. I wont be surprised it the present govt says the 'whole thing started under labour' and then jump on fast tracking compensations.

It is a travesty of justice... God help everyone who was affected.

I think travesty of justice is putting it lightly.

At the very least it’s a national outrage. If I said what I really think on this forum I’d have to ban myself.

 

[Tashyboy]

I think travesty of justice is putting it lightly.

At the very least it’s a national outrage. If I said what I really think on this forum I’d have to ban myself.

I don’t mind being a mod for 10 mins to ban you.

Joking aside I binge watched it last night. Billy’s post mirrors my thoughts.

It left so so many questions unanswered.

The police are now investigating and quite rightly so.

The post master were accused of lying but it was the post office that was lying. A lot of the focus was rightly pointed at the post office and a lying Paula Vennels. Ex Anglican priest.

But there is a company behind this “ Horizon “ scandal that has a hell of a lot of questions to answer. Fujitsu. They knew exactly what was going off.

 

[AmandaJR]

I don’t mind being a mod for 10 mins to ban you.

Joing aside I binge watched it last night. Billy’s post mirrors my thoughts.

It left so so many questions unanswered.

The police are now investigating and quite rightly so.

The post master were accused of lying but it was the post office that was lying. A lot of the focus was rightly pointed at the post office and a lying Paula Vennels. Ex Anglican priest.

But there is a company behind this “ Horizon “ scandal that has a hell of a lot of questions to answer. Fujitsu. They knew exactly what was going off.

100%. Fujitsu seem to have pretty much got away with it. What we don't know is whether the post office asked them to provide remote access?

 

[Maninblack4612]

I think that a good forensic accountant working for one of the defendants could have wrecked any of the Post Office's cases. Asking them to prove that their books balanced would have revealed discrepancies that the Post Office would not have been able to explain.

There's a lot of stuff about the scandal on the Internet. In one case the judge directed the use of a forensic accountant to investigate, whereupon the Post Office promptly dropped the case. This could be used as evidence that the Post Office knew about the unreliability of Horizon.

 

[Maninblack4612]

I think that a good forensic accountant working for one of the defendants could have wrecked any of the Post Office's cases. Asking them to prove that their books balanced would have revealed discrepancies that the Post Office would not have been able to explain.

There's a lot of stuff about the scandal on the Internet. In one case the judge directed the use of a forensic accountant to investigate, whereupon the Post Office promptly dropped the case. This could be used as evidence that the Post Office knew about the unreliability of Horizon.

Here it is, from "Computer Weekly"

"For example, if a subpostmaster being blamed for an unexplained shortfall sought expert IT advice, the Post Office would often back down. In 2003, when the Post Office was suing a subpostmaster who was blaming Horizon for shortfalls at her branch in Lancashire, a judge ordered it to appoint an expert IT witness. When the expert revealed problems with Horizon, the Post Office paid off the subpostmaster and forced her to sign a non-disclosure" https://www.computerweekly.com/feat...scandal-explained-everything-you-need-to-know

 

[Hobbit]

it has taken a tv series to make the nation realise what has happened. The tory MP comes out smelling well - and good work if he really supported the case. It also shows the shocking lack of scrutiny in the higher echelons of power.. CEO gets CBE and then moves onto other directorships and fat pensions, companies going unpunished, politicians turning blind eye. I wont be surprised it the present govt says the 'whole thing started under labour' and then jump on fast tracking compensations.

It is a travesty of justice... God help everyone who was affected.

And why has it taken a TV series to put some urgency into resolving it?

I can vaguely remember the IT system/Fujitsu being identified as the reason for the discrepancies, and I thought it had been resolved years ago. Think it was identified in Nov 2019. The police started their investigation early the following year. That’s 4 years without really moving it forward. In no way am I arguing politics in this but the Minister responsible said it needed to be sorted by the Post Office even though it’s the state that is the single shareholder in PO plc. Surely the shareholders should have been holding the board to account, as in any limited company.

 

[Mudball]

And why has it taken a TV series to put some urgency into resolving it?

I can vaguely remember the IT system/Fujitsu being identified as the reason for the discrepancies, and I thought it had been resolved years ago. Think it was identified in Nov 2019. The police started their investigation early the following year. That’s 4 years without really moving it forward. In no way am I arguing politics in this but the Minister responsible said it needed to be sorted by the Post Office even though it’s the state that is the single shareholder in PO plc. Surely the shareholders should have been holding the board to account, as in any limited company.

Alan Bates is the UK version of Erin Brockovich...

 

[Hobbit]

There was a BBC Panorama documentary on this back in 2015. BBC took down the documentary, saying there was no evidence of wrong doing. And there’s some great vids of Commons Select Committee hearings which include Paula Vennells, PO CEO, and Second Sight the independent organisation brought by the PO to investigate the issue.

The PO stopped sharing info with Second Sight when Second Sight‘s forensic accountants started asking difficult questions.