Post Office - Horizon scandal

[phillarrow]

There are few stories that I can remember that have made me as angry as this one and I have no personal links to the PO. Given what these people were put through they should be awarded massive compensation (although too late for some) and some people at both the PO and the IT company should be facing their own prison sentences which would hopefully ruined them for life.

For the PO to get away with a ‘sorry’ and paying a bit of money (not all are getting much as they settled earlier on in the process to try and put it to bed) is a disgrace.

I agree with you on this one, it's left a particularly bitter taste.

There's something trustworthy, genuine, peculiarly Biritsh, almost historical about our relationship with the postal service in this country and I bet that the vast majority of those who went into to thy job and became postmasters/mistresses did so because they are the kind of people who wish to serve their community.
For them to be treated so badly is utterly disgusting.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

One of the problems is that it has to be done on a case by case basis.

Many of these people pleaded guilty in court (probably in the hope og getting a lighter sentence).

Why? Why does it HAVE to be done on a case by case basis?
I dispute that starting point.
This is such a clear fault of the new "computer" system, that the only fair way to sort this is to do so on the basis that everyone accused is innocent-
And the ones accused should be compensated .
To think you were doing an honest job and then some "system" puts you through hell, - and those responsible for clearing this mess want to deal with it on a "case by case """etc. In other words, the accused individually has to show they were, and to what extent, badly affected by this system and not by some other situation which is not the fault of the P.O.?
No, if you were using this system , and you were accused, then you should be vindicated and compensated.
And those knowing the system was flawed should be sorted.

 

[road2ruin]

Why? Why does it HAVE to be done on a case by case basis?
I dispute that starting point.
This is such a clear fault of the new "computer" system, that the only fair way to sort this is to do so on the basis that everyone accused is innocent-
And the ones accused should be compensated .
To think you were doing an honest job and then some "system" puts you through hell, - and those responsible for clearing this mess want to deal with it on a "case by case """etc. In other words, the accused individually has to show they were, and to what extent, badly affected by this system and not by some other situation which is not the fault of the P.O.?
No, if you were using this system , and you were accused, then you should be vindicated and compensated.
And those knowing the system was flawed should be sorted.

I agree, all those accused should be given the same (high level) of compensation regardless of their suffering. If that means that the PO pay out far more than they should, tough luck.

 

[AliMc]

Paula Vennells (Crozier may or may not have got one - I don't know)

The PO was split into two separate businesses Royal Mail (Letters) and Post Office (Counters) i think Crozier was RM so had no involvement with this iirc

 

[AliMc]

Hmm.
Seems Fujitsu were as culpable in this matter as senior management of RM - to the extent they denied (lied in court even) that there were issues with the software.

Again it is nothing to do with RM (Royal Mail) it is Post Office Counters, they are two entirely separate businesses

 

[chrisd]

Our local PO shop keeper at the time went to prison and has since died. How awful that locals would have pointed the finger at a 'criminal' on his release until death

 

[road2ruin]

Our local PO shop keeper at the time went to prison and has since died. How awful that locals would have pointed the finger at a 'criminal' on his release until death

Which is why those who knew but did nothing about it at the PO need to go through the same, go to jail, be alienated by friends and hopefully lose their homes. Might give them an insight into what they put so many others through.

 

[drdel]

At high and middle management levels PO culture was one of "promoting the non-involved" so nobody would touch any sensitive projects or decisions. Group thinking prevented problems being passed up the chain of management so the 'messenger ' wasn't vulnerable.

Issues were swept away with no accountability.

Those involved from PO and the suppliers should return any bonuses or performance related payments. The CEs of the time should be hit hard for their negligence. The independents who suffered should be really well compensated, not that money can undo the damage done to their lives.

The whole debacle stinks.

 

[Foxholer]

Again it is nothing to do with RM (Royal Mail) it is Post Office Counters, they are two entirely separate businesses

That's the case now, but was not the case when Horizon was introduced (piloted from about 1995; Live from 1999; Discrepancy issues identified immediately).

 

[AliMc]

That's the case now, but was not the case when Horizon was introduced (piloted from about 1995; Live from 1999; Discrepancy issues identified immediately).

Post Office Counters Ltd was created in 1986, I was the Payroll Manager in Edinburgh at the time and had the choice of whether to stay with Royal Mail (Letters) or transfer over to Post Office Counters, I stayed with RM, PO Counters were run as a separate business with it's own management structure

 

[jim8flog]

Why? Why does it HAVE to be done on a case by case basis?
I dispute that starting point.
This is such a clear fault of the new "computer" system, that the only fair way to sort this is to do so on the basis that everyone accused is innocent-
And the ones accused should be compensated .
To think you were doing an honest job and then some "system" puts you through hell, - and those responsible for clearing this mess want to deal with it on a "case by case """etc. In other words, the accused individually has to show they were, and to what extent, badly affected by this system and not by some other situation which is not the fault of the P.O.?
No, if you were using this system , and you were accused, then you should be vindicated and compensated.
And those knowing the system was flawed should be sorted.

you ask why

Answer- because that is the way the law works.

As I understand it

Pleading innocent leaves a path open for the verdict to be overturned on appeal if there is found to be other evidence supporting the innocent plea as have many of the convictions using this route.

There is no such path in law once a guilty plea (however wrongly given) was given. This would have been the reason that a lot could not join the class action.

I do agree there would have been many who fell foul of the computer system but I would suspect there were a few on the fiddle and got caught so knowingly pleaded guilty.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

Private Eye have done an incredible job in pushing this story for years and should be commended for it. The people responsible will get away with it as usual which is disgusting.

 

[Foxholer]

Post Office Counters Ltd was created in 1986, I was the Payroll Manager in Edinburgh at the time and had the choice of whether to stay with Royal Mail (Letters) or transfer over to Post Office Counters, I stayed with RM, PO Counters were run as a separate business with it's own management structure

Agreed - at the lowest level. But PO Counters was a wholly owned subsidiary of the Post Office (effectively, a Profit/Cost Centre in preparation for privatisation), which was eventually also 'privatised', with PO Counters becoming Post Office Ltd. Royal Mail went through its own privatisation process separately, as you are no doubt aware.
My understanding, incomplete at best (I knew fellow IT contractors who were working on the project), is that Horizon was/is only relevant to the PO Counters side of the service/business though.

 

[Blue in Munich]

you ask why

Answer- because that is the way the law works. As I understand it Pleading innocent leaves a path open for the verdict to be overturned on appeal if there is found to be other evidence supporting the innocent plea as have many of the convictions using this route.

There is no such path in law once a guilty plea (however wrongly given) was given. This would have been the reason that a lot could not join the class action.

I do agree there would have been many who fell foul of the computer system but I would suspect there were a few on the fiddle and got caught so knowingly pleaded guilty.

Not exactly;

https://doughty-street-chambers.newsweaver.com/Appeals/mckaqv7xihm?a=1&p=698904&t=174031

"As a general rule, where there has been a guilty plea an appeal against the resulting conviction may be based on the grounds that (i) the resulting conviction was unsafe because the accused pleaded guilty following an erroneous ruling by the trial judge which removed the defence; (ii) there exists fresh evidence which undermines the safety of the plea, e.g. fresh psychiatric evidence supporting a defence not advanced at trial; or (iii) where the accused's guilty plea was involuntary and thus a nullity (because of erroneous advice or judicial pressure.)."

Given that a number of these people may have entered guilty pleas on the basis that the computer couldn't possibly be faulty; now it is known the system is a crock of then the conviction can be considered unsafe would be my opinion.

 

[backwoodsman]

The PO was split into two separate businesses Royal Mail (Letters) and Post Office (Counters) i think Crozier was RM so had no involvement with this iirc

Again it is nothing to do with RM (Royal Mail) it is Post Office Counters, they are two entirely separate businesses

Ok. I accept your explanation. (I'm of the generation that tend to regard "the post office" and/or "royal mail" as one & the same, and that they deal in all things to do with letters, parcels and post offices. If they are not, then fine. But the half that got this so badly wrong are still gits).
Ps. Crozier is not a name I've noticed in association with this so you're probably right.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Hmm.
Seems Fujitsu were as culpable in this matter as senior management of RM - to the extent they denied (lied in court even) that there were issues with the software.

And Fujitsu were still paying bonuses to the team working on the account and the senior management.

 

[Jensen]

Paula Vennells (Crozier may or may not have got one - I don't know)

I wondered if it was Crozier as he made a mess of The Football Association ?

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Our local PO shop keeper at the time went to prison and has since died. How awful that locals would have pointed the finger at a 'criminal' on his release until death

Yes, so true, but in fact when you think about it, it is incalculable the pain and distress suffered in that situation .
Yet we don't seem to have had too much of an enquiry, or the reporting of it if one has taken place , about who pushed or allowed for this to go on?
Someone has already , rightly, pointed out that at some point, it must have been noticed that there was a hell of a spike in cases of dishonesty, compared with years past?. Not only that, these same accused had for long years given honest service, and then...all of a sudden....

At the top end of the P.O. surely there must have been comments on the lines of " Blimey, all these cases. Never knew we had been employing so many dishonest people fiddling us for all these years...etc etc."
Talk about bells ringing!
What happened next, or rather didn't happen, makes one suspect that it was known that they hadn't been employing thieves all those years, and that something was wrong that needed urgent investigation.

 

[AliMc]

Yes, so true, but in fact when you think about it, it is incalculable the pain and distress suffered in that situation .
Yet we don't seem to have had too much of an enquiry, or the reporting of it if one has taken place , about who pushed or allowed for this to go on?
Someone has already , rightly, pointed out that at some point, it must have been noticed that there was a hell of a spike in cases of dishonesty, compared with years past?. Not only that, these same accused had for long years given honest service, and then...all of a sudden....

At the top end of the P.O. surely there must have been comments on the lines of " Blimey, all these cases. Never knew we had been employing so many dishonest people fiddling us for all these years...etc etc."
Talk about bells ringing!
What happened next, or rather didn't happen, makes one suspect that it was known that they hadn't been employing thieves all those years, and that something was wrong that needed urgent investigation.

Too true, I was involved in the Subpostmasters payroll for Edinburgh and the Lothians for about 5 or 6 years before it was transferred over to PO Counters, it that time only 1 or 2 'Resigned' their position

 

[Foxholer]

Private Eye have done an incredible job in pushing this story for years and should be commended for it. The people responsible will get away with it as usual which is disgusting.

Here's a/the link https://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/special_reports/justice-lost-in-the-post.pdf