Post Office - Horizon scandal

[road2ruin]

The spike in cases following the system going in should have been obvious.

I worked with far too many fraud investigators in my time who assumed guilt and set out to prove it. (I said "Too many," not all)

This coupled with monumental arse covering resulted in this tragedy.

Folk need jailing for their part in it.

This is what got me. At some point there would have had to have been a discussion about the sheer number of fraudulent sub-postmasters there were all of a sudden and yet they were happy to ignore this and believe the software was right. So much was covered up whilst these poor people lost homes, relationships and in some cases their lives. Personally I would only be happy to see everyone complicit in this go to jail themselves and lose everything they own and have their own lives completely ruined.

 

[PJ87]

Finished the series tonight before work.

What a remarkable man Alan bates is

It's pathetic it's taken an itv drama to anger the public to push for action for government

This has been known about at the highest level for years. It should have been dealt with

 

[4LEX]

Vennells surprised me as to just how poor she was. Her responses were disjointed and shallow, and she was a CEO. Who appointed her? She was awful.

Jobs for friends/favours. Both Labour and the Tories gift jobs as favours in all sorts of industries. People not qualified for them and usually towards the end of their careers. It's no surprise when these people are held to account they get shown up for what they really are.

Compare that to Mike Ashley facing the same people a few years ago, someone not universally popular. He answered everything and made the select commitee look like schoolkids. By the end they were eating out of hand.

 

[Tashyboy]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi68cGp7M6DAxUCTEEAHb3UBpUQFnoECBYQAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbidstats.uk%2Ftenders%2F%3Fq%3Dfujitsu%26scope%3Dsupplier&usg=AOvVaw0Aya-ksArR11cIJF-a0yPW&opi=89978449

sweet lord

check out the Nov 23 contract to the er post office

 

[GreiginFife]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi68cGp7M6DAxUCTEEAHb3UBpUQFnoECBYQAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbidstats.uk%2Ftenders%2F%3Fq%3Dfujitsu%26scope%3Dsupplier&usg=AOvVaw0Aya-ksArR11cIJF-a0yPW&opi=89978449

sweet lord

check out the Nov 23 contract to the er post office

Look at the April ‘23 one…

 

[cliveb]

I’m wondering where the pressure on the PO Project team was coming from to accept the system into operation. I don’t know enough about this yet, but were the acceptance timescales in any way defined by any specific business driver or constraint. It doesn’t seem to be aligned with privatisation - though any subsequent ‘cover-up’ of system problems and miscarriages of justice may have been?

I’ll add that having worked for a major global IT company building and delivering complex systems for UK government how difficult the government customer can be with changing requirements and priorities, plus problematic accountability in their senior management team. As a supplier PM I was often at the pointy end with the programme and account directors trying to sort these things out…with the customer managers being often quite scarily open about significant ministerial pressure being applied to ‘get it sorted and done’.

I too worked for a major services company that won a lot of government contracts and can confirm SILH's observation of just how difficult the government is as a client in terms of their overly complex requirements and constant shifting of goalposts. Thank God I am now retired.

What I will also point out is that the deadlines for deployment are nearly always decided on commercial or political grounds by people who have no idea whether they are actually achievable. The poor technicians tasked with building and delivering the systems have little say in it, and are bullied into rolling them out well before they are ready. (Specifically regarding government systems, deadlines can be brought forward at ministers' whims. For example, the original Criminal Records Bureau was brought forward by about six months with virtually no notice as a knee jerk reaction to the Soham murders. I can appreciate why the need to protect children was paramount, but forcing the introduction of a system way before it was ready was a recipe for disaster, and so it proved).

None of this excuses what happened with Horizon, of course. Covering up the system's faults was inexcusable, and then pursuing subpostmasters was on another level of despicableness entirely.

 

[cliveb]

Look at the April ‘23 one…

That looks like the same contract as the Nov '23 one, just that another £100 million had been added by then (and the name "Horizon" removed presumably for obvious reasons).

 

[Tashyboy]

Look at the April ‘23 one…

I saw that just before I went to bed. Couldn’t get my head around why the PO has nigh on £4.7 billion or was one an update of the other. I don’t know. What I do know is that if Fujitsu have to pay. It will be taxpayers money.

 

[GreiginFife]

I saw that just before I went to bed. Couldn’t get my head around why the PO has nigh on £4.7 billion or was one an update of the other. I don’t know. What I do know is that if Fujitsu have to pay. It will be taxpayers money.

As Clive noted, its a modification in November to the contract in April. Removed Horizon name, added testing environ support at what looks like £100m additional cost.

 

[Jimaroid]

It’s a disgrace. Always has been.

I’ve never understood why the Benefits Agency abandoning Horizon was not the alarm bell. Everything past that point was a disaster. That was where the decision was made and it should be easy to trace the shoulders that carried it through.

 

[road2ruin]

I saw that just before I went to bed. Couldn’t get my head around why the PO has nigh on £4.7 billion or was one an update of the other. I don’t know. What I do know is that if Fujitsu have to pay. It will be taxpayers money.

Given they (Fujitsu) have supplied a product that is clearly at fault for all this they should be liable for compensation, if I deliver a substandard product in my industry I am culpable so why shouldn't they be? They are still benefiting from contracts so it shouldn't be hard to threaten them with ongoing projects being shelved or given elsewhere?!

 

[Voyager EMH]

Post Office Scandal: Strip Paula Vennells of her CBE

I just signed the petition calling on Paula Vennells, the former CEO of the Post Office to be stripped of her CBE. Will you sign too?

you.38degrees.org.uk

Signatures coming in at a rate of two per second.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It’s a disgrace. Always has been.

I’ve never understood why the Benefits Agency abandoning Horizon was not the alarm bell. Everything past that point was a disaster. That was where the decision was made and it should be easy to trace the shoulders that carried it through.

When did the BA abandon Horizon…and was it the one system for both BA and PO?

Strikes me that Fujitsu could have found themselves trying to build a system for two quite separate gov departments, ministers and customers, probably with quite different, possibly conflicting, key requirements…but those in government tasked with commissioning systems for the two agencies felt they could save money by doubling up on Horizon. Alternatively if the BA (DWP?) dumped the system was it then repurposed for PO - but with BA functionality not (fully) consistent with PO requirements already built, but that could not be fully stripped out due to timescale, cost or other drivers.

Either way would be a recipe for disaster.

 

[Deleted member 15717]

Given they (Fujitsu) have supplied a product that is clearly at fault for all this they should be liable for compensation, if I deliver a substandard product in my industry I am culpable so why shouldn't they be? They are still benefiting from contracts so it shouldn't be hard to threaten them with ongoing projects being shelved or given elsewhere?!

Alternatively, did the PO accept the solution with the errors as they wanted to implement the system, but then were covering it up?

 

[Beezerk]

This is what got me. At some point there would have had to have been a discussion about the sheer number of fraudulent sub-postmasters there were all of a sudden and yet they were happy to ignore this and believe the software was right.

For me there must have been a top to bottom culture in the PO management that they were convinced a lot of sub postmasters were already fiddling the books. Then the new software goes ping and the managers rub their hands together with glee, totally unaware that there was a glitch in the software.

On a more technical note, I guess the glitch has been found but has it been released as to when they found it and what the actual glitch was?

 

[road2ruin]

Alternatively, did the PO accept the solution with the errors as they wanted to implement the system, but then were covering it up?

I think that's almost certainly true as well. I just hope it's not all down to the taxpayer to cover costs on this when you have a commercial organisation whose product has resulted in this. They also continue to benefit from government contracts so surely easy to do some arm twisting to get their cheque book out.

 

[road2ruin]

For me there must have been a top to bottom culture in the PO management that they were convinced a lot of sub postmasters were already fiddling the books. Then the new software goes ping and the managers rub their hands together with glee, totally unaware that there was a glitch in the software.

Have you seen the leaked emails from management within the PO? Essentially the bit in bold is almost certainly what they thought as they were keen to make examples of sub postmasters in court to prevent others coming forward and blaming the system.

 

[Beezerk]

Have you seen the leaked emails from management within the PO? Essentially the bit in bold is almost certainly what they thought as they were keen to make examples of sub postmasters in court to prevent others coming forward and blaming the system.

No I haven’t but it would make sense why they never batted an eyelid when so many got “caught”, it just reinforced their position that they’d been right all along.

 

[road2ruin]

I think I've mentioned previously that for whatever reason this story has been one that I have been interested on for years, well before the recent uptake and it's one that has always made me angry. Listening to radio call ins this morning I think I've got to the bottom as to why it's been a story that has stuck with me so much as it's the fact that this could happen to any of us. We don't realise how close we are to losing everything through no fault of our own, if you happen to be on the wrong side of the 'fight' you are screwed even though you have done nothing wrong. As one caller put it, it's an 'anxiety dream', something that you don't really think could ever happen to you, it's too impossible but then it does or at least has to hundreds of these postmasters.

 

[road2ruin]

This is the story of Seema Misra....

Seema Misra who is married to Davinder, took over the Post Office in West Byfleet, Surrey, in 2005. She noticed the Horizon computer system showed a shortfall of £80 on her first day of training

The trainer told her the accounts were never exact. She didn’t understand why they wouldn’t tally, especially when it happened again the next day, but the trainer shrugged it off and her books repeatedly failed to tally with her takings. She started suspecting everybody and even sold her jewellery to pay back the shortfall.

In 2010, she was eight weeks pregnant with her second child when she was sentenced to 15 months behind bars, after being wrongly accused of stealing £74,000 from the Post Office.
She said, " Being pregnant in prison was horrendous" "It was unclean, I felt I had limited antenatal care, and I was constantly terrified someone would attack me. I'd convince myself someone was going to stab me and kill my baby. I'd gone from being a pillar of the community to a thief stealing money from old people

Her husband Davinder was attacked after her picture appeared in the paper. He also had to endure the heartbreak of being shunned by their friends, all while looking after their 10 year old son Aditya. Seema's conviction was only quashed in 2021.

In May 2023, an email from senior Post Office lawyer, Jarnail Singh was exposed during the public inquiry. This email showed him celebrating Seema's conviction to a series of executives. The inquiry heard that in 2013 Jarnail Singh sent another internal email referring to the ‘passing bandwagon’ of Horizon challenges and predicting that ‘when we get a few wins under our belt the Horizon challenges will melt away like the midnight snow’.

In an email, jarnail Singh wrote:

Dear All,

After a lengthy trial at Guildford Crown Court the above named was found Guilty of theft. This case turned from a relatively straightforward general deficiency case to an unprecedented attack on the Horizon system. We were best with unparallel degree of disclosure requests by the Defence. Through the hard work of everyone, counsel Warwick Tatford, investigation officer Jon Longman and through the considerable expertise of Gareth Jenkins of Fujitsu, we were able to destroy to the criminal standard of proof every single suggestion made by the defence.

It is hope the case will set a marker to dissuade other Defendants from jumping on the Horizon bashing bandwagon.