Post Office - Horizon scandal

[Hobbit]

Numbers are starting to appear listing the monies paid to various firms of solicitors that have represented the Post Office in prosecutions and deciding compensation.

Top of the list is Herbert Smith Freehills = £82,000,000…..£82,000,000

In some respects, if the rates were agreed and the volume of work warranted the total it reached, as unpalatable as it is…

But wait…. Like all invoices the totals are broken down into the relevant work undertaken. How does £134 per hour sound for clerical work? Bearing in mind other aspects of the work carried different costs, £134 seems a little on the high side. But when you find out that the going rate for clerical work, at the time, was circa £14 you getting the feeling the PO, and subsequently the tax payer, were ripped off.

There is a growing clamour for the work those firms carried out to be reviewed for the legality of their actions, and if they were knowingly complicit in the prosecutions, that not only are they included in any conspiracy cases but that the fees paid are recouped. I dare say the insurance companies that insure those (il)legal firms are a little concerned.

 

[Hobbit]

Numbers are starting to appear listing the monies paid to various firms of solicitors that have represented the Post Office in prosecutions and deciding compensation.

Top of the list is Herbert Smith Freehills = £82,000,000…..£82,000,000

In some respects, if the rates were agreed and the volume of work warranted the total it reached, as unpalatable as it is…

But wait…. Like all invoices the totals are broken down into the relevant work undertaken. How does £134 per hour sound for clerical work? Bearing in mind other aspects of the work carried different costs, £134 seems a little on the high side. But when you find out that the going rate for clerical work, at the time, was circa £14 you getting the feeling the PO, and subsequently the tax payer, were ripped off.

There is a growing clamour for the work those firms carried out to be reviewed for the legality of their actions, and if they were knowingly complicit in the prosecutions, that not only are they included in any conspiracy cases but that the fees paid are recouped. I dare say the insurance companies that insure those (il)legal firms are a little concerned.

Just a quick edit/update…

The work at £134 per hour was for clerical work carried out in Belfast….. drum roll….. the clerical work carried out elsewhere in the U.K. was charged at £560 per hour.

Who the hell signed off on those figures?
Who at the Treasury, in post to ensure value for money, didn’t pick up on it?

 

[Hobbit]

Group Litigation payouts. 555 SubPostmasters joined together to bring the Group Litigation case against the PO. Of the 555, 69 had convictions. Although the PO lost the case they would not include the 69 in calculating the payout to the group.

The group decided to divide the payout by 555. The PO, on hearing the group were going to do this, reduced the payout by the sum the group had decided to give to the 69…(surely what the group decided to do with the money is up to them)

However, some of the 69 have since had their convictions overturned. As a result the PO are oh so slowly drip feeding money to them, but are even still arguing about the amounts. For all the big fanfare about overturned convictions, it would appear not all of them were overturned as part of the large tranche reviewed last year. They are being processed but oh so slowly…

 

[Hobbit]

Totally, totally going off at a tangent….

One of my cousins died in the early 90’s of AIDS, a smidge over 30 years ago. As someone who was a haemophiliac he needed blood transfusions. Unfortunately, he was one of the people who received contaminated blood products.

Finally, after over 30 years, his family has received compensation.

I wonder when the PO will finally make the last full & fair payment, and when will justice be served? I hope, but I have very little confidence…

 

[Hobbit]

More evidence emerging of documents deliberately not being supplied to the Inquiry, and of a document stating that Sir Wyn Williams was happy to confirm that documents had been received this triggering the payment of a bonus element to senior executives.

The PO has formally acknowledged that this was inaccurate and are investigating how a director who was on maternity leave was in a position to advise that the bonus targets had been achieved. Strangely enough it’s the same director who advised her maternity cover to use WhatsApp as emails left a paper trail.

 

[Hobbit]

As yet more of the 2.2m pages of evidence are reviewed more questionable issues arise.

Alisdair Cameron, the Chief Financial Officer, raised the issue at a number of board meetings of the law firm Herbert Smith Freehill’s continued involvement in resolving compensation claims after they had been central to so many of the prosecutions. Some may remember that the relationship between him and Nick Read, CEO, broke down to such an extent that he was placed on gardening leave for a year before receiving a seven figure some to leave the business.

Herbert Smith Freehills have, so far, received £82,000,000 in fees.

Also, there was a report out in the last few days that Ed Davey, Post Office Minister for 2 years in the Coalition govt, earned £247,000 from Herbert Smiths Freehills several years after leaving govt for work he had done for them… the implication is unfair but it doesn’t look good.

 

[rulefan]

It gets murkier and murkier

 

[Voyager EMH]

As yet more of the 2.2m pages of evidence are reviewed more questionable issues arise.

Alisdair Cameron, the Chief Financial Officer, raised the issue at a number of board meetings of the law firm Herbert Smith Freehill’s continued involvement in resolving compensation claims after they had been central to so many of the prosecutions. Some may remember that the relationship between him and Nick Read, CEO, broke down to such an extent that he was placed on gardening leave for a year before receiving a seven figure some to leave the business.

Herbert Smith Freehills have, so far, received £82,000,000 in fees.

Also, there was a report out in the last few days that Ed Davey, Post Office Minister for 2 years in the Coalition govt, earned £247,000 from Herbert Smiths Freehills several years after leaving govt for work he had done for them… the implication is unfair but it doesn’t look good.

How can a failing company be paying out bonuses to execs?
And is that £82,000,000 ultimately coming from tax payers along with all the compensation pay-outs? I can't think of where else it might come from.
Same goes for Ed Davey's £247,000 on top of his MP salary.
Fujitsu might be throwing some money in for compensations, but the final bill to the tax payer is going to be billions, I imagine.

Together with the water companies, this is a massive UK-internal financial disaster and money-waste caused by high-paid execs and not "workers who need to improve productivity".

I strongly suspect that the unwritten objective was to make the PO a profitable-looking business so that it could be sold off at a huge price with a massive bung to its execs.
P. Vennells must have thought she was on her way to even greater wealth, knighthood, bishop and seat in The Lords. Her tears were for herself when that future was shattered.

Workers all over the country will be paying the costs for some time. (What will those execs be paying, I wonder)

 

[Hobbit]

How can a failing company be paying out bonuses to execs?
And is that £82,000,000 ultimately coming from tax payers along with all the compensation pay-outs? I can't think of where else it might come from.
Same goes for Ed Davey's £247,000 on top of his MP salary.
Fujitsu might be throwing some money in for compensations, but the final bill to the tax payer is going to be billions, I imagine.

Together with the water companies, this is a massive UK-internal financial disaster and money-waste caused by high-paid execs and not "workers who need to improve productivity".

I strongly suspect that the unwritten objective was to make the PO a profitable-looking business so that it could be sold off at a huge price with a massive bung to its execs.
P. Vennells must have thought she was on her way to even greater wealth, knighthood, bishop and seat in The Lords. Her tears were for herself when that future was shattered.

Workers all over the country will be paying the costs for some time. (What will those execs be paying, I wonder)

Re bonuses, I’ve never understood the legality of taking out massive bank loans to pay bonuses and dividends. Think Thames Water. Making massive losses, some of which comes from borrowing millions to cover bonuses & share dividends. All done whilst not investing in the infrastructure. It’s a financial house of cards. A few hiccups and it all comes tumbling down.

Re the £82m. The PO asked for and got a huge amount of money from the Treasury to cover compensation. That lump includes costs. The more the solicitors get, the less that is available for the claimants. One of the schemes originally had a fee payable by the claimant just to register their claim. Thankfully that’s been stopped.

There’s a dept within the Treasury that is supposed to look at value for money. It also relies on CEO’s highlighting questionable fees by suppliers. Apparently Nick Read, outgoing CEO, is in the frame for not highlighting the £82m. Some MP’s want the Treasury to go through all the invoices from Herbert Smith Freehills with a view to recovering excessive charges - see posts 921 & 922.

I dare say this scandal will rumble on for many, many years

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Sadly with all things public sector, it's all about what the individual can get out of it.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Sadly with all things public sector, it's all about what the individual can get out of it.

Individuals - yes - individuals are responsible for some serious wrongdoings.

"All things public sector" - nonsense - similar occurrences can and do occur in private sector - and a lot of public sector is not-for-profit orientated.
Teaching, nursing etc is definitely not "all about what the individual can get out of it."

I think the problem here (PO and Fujitsu) is all about high-paid individuals and their share of the corporate greed. These individuals get jobs in public and private sector.
The problem is with them wherever they are - public or private sector.

 

[Hobbit]

The Solicitor’s Regulation Authority announced yesterday that it is ready to launch some of its proposed prosecutions and disciplinary proceedings. Its intention is to await the publication of the Inquiry report later this year so as not to dilute the impact the Inquiry report will have. However, in a number of cases it already has the evidence it requires to proceed, and it is continuing to gather evidence in a number of other cases.

 

[Hobbit]

The Swift Report.

Following the Panorama documentary into the Horizon scandal the then CEO Tim Parker, colloquially known by the unions as the Prince of Darkness, commissioned a report into Horizon. The report was led by the top lawyer for the Treasury, Jonathan Swift, and was completed in 2016. Jane MacLeod, General Counsel at the PO, persuaded Parker not to release the report to the board, and also declared it legally privileged so that it was withheld from defence teams.

The report did not see the light of day till the Inquiry became a statutory Inquiry, and a formal Article 9 request was submitted. A request was also made for Jane MacLeod to attend but she refused. She could have been subpoenaed but the Chair of the Inquiry, Sir Wyn Williams decided that he

The report included a number of conclusions, including yes there were bugs, yes the convictions may have been unsafe and yes Fujitsu could access SubPostmaster’s Horizon terminals remotely.

Ref the quoted post above and the Swift Report…

It would appear that BEIS, the dept of trade & industry to give it its old name, cannot find a single set of minutes to any meetings in which the report was discussed between non-executive directors & other board members, nor between the non-executive directors and BEIS.

Further to that, they have refused all freedom of information requests using the excuse that the report and all associated documents have already been released to the Inquiry.

It would appear that the Civil Servants involved in this scandal have not smelled the coffee, and are setting themselves up as major culprits too.

 

[Hobbit]

Ref the quoted post above and the Swift Report…

It would appear that BEIS, the dept of trade & industry to give it its old name, cannot find a single set of minutes to any meetings in which the report was discussed between non-executive directors & other board members, nor between the non-executive directors and BEIS.

Further to that, they have refused all freedom of information requests using the excuse that the report and all associated documents have already been released to the Inquiry.

It would appear that the Civil Servants involved in this scandal have not smelled the coffee, and are setting themselves up as major culprits too.

One to really get the blood boil. It suddenly occurred to me that Civil Servants might have Crown Immunity from prosecution…

Well… there’s another U.K. institution that needs changing.

 

[Hobbit]

The various compensation schemes. A lot has been written about the unfairness of the various schemes but perhaps the most unfair aspect of any of the schemes is the risk a claimant has if they reject the first offer in the GLO scheme.

If a claimant in any of the other schemes rejects an offer that offer, because it was determined by the operators of that schemes, stands as the minimum a claimant will receive. It may well be that the offer isn’t upped but the sum is guaranteed.

However, if a claimant in the GLO scheme rejects an offer the claim goes back for full reassessment and could be reduced. Further, to that the second offer can’t be rejected. One of several claimants who had their offer reduced had it reduced by £140k, and with no chance to contest it.


Going off at a tangent… there was a comment in a newspaper article this week about all the PO directors, senior managers etc who have used their appearance at the Inquiry to say sorry for all the damage that has been done. The question raised in the comment was why didn’t all those who were apologising act as whistleblowers long before the Inquiry was created. The comment is perhaps a bit general and simplistic but there must have been a light bulb moment as all the appeals were lost by the PO. Piece finished quite bitterly by saying maybe they were only sorry they’d been caught out.

 

[Hobbit]

As the Post Office looks to franchise out over 100 Crown Post Office branches Tesco looks at acquiring the majority of them.

I wonder if the PO has the financial clout to take on Tesco in dodgy, Horizon evidenced prosecutions?

 

[backwoodsman]

.....

Going off at a tangent… there was a comment in a newspaper article this week about all the PO directors, senior managers etc who have used their appearance at the Inquiry to say sorry for all the damage that has been done. The question raised in the comment was why didn’t all those who were apologising act as whistleblowers long before the Inquiry was created. The comment is perhaps a bit general and simplistic but there must have been a light bulb moment as all the appeals were lost by the PO. Piece finished quite bitterly by saying maybe they were only sorry they’d been caught out.

Nail on head I think ...

 

[Tashyboy]

Individuals - yes - individuals are responsible for some serious wrongdoings.

"All things public sector" - nonsense - similar occurrences can and do occur in private sector - and a lot of public sector is not-for-profit orientated.
Teaching, nursing etc is definitely not "all about what the individual can get out of it."

I think the problem here (PO and Fujitsu) is all about high-paid individuals and their share of the corporate greed. These individuals get jobs in public and private sector.
The problem is with them wherever they are - public or private sector.

A few years back I was talking to a guy and basically I was ripping the NHS to bits. Not the dr/ nursing side but management, policies etc. I asked this guy what he did. He was an ex NHS Trust chief exec. He ran two trusts in UK, being finished twice with a large payout. He was currently working as Chef exec in Perth Australia.
I asked him point blank “ you must know that some policies you are going to instigate are going to cost more money and fail so why do it”. He said “ of course, but the policies are not mine. They come from above me”. he said “ if I don’t do it someone else will”. I have a feeling a lot of what the post office and individuals did came from above.

 

[cliveb]

One to really get the blood boil. It suddenly occurred to me that Civil Servants might have Crown Immunity from prosecution…

You sure that's true? Wasn't Sarah Tisdall a civil servant?

 

[Voyager EMH]

A few years back I was talking to a guy and basically I was ripping the NHS to bits. Not the dr/ nursing side but management, policies etc. I asked this guy what he did. He was an ex NHS Trust chief exec. He ran two trusts in UK, being finished twice with a large payout. He was currently working as Chef exec in Perth Australia.
I asked him point blank “ you must know that some policies you are going to instigate are going to cost more money and fail so why do it”. He said “ of course, but the policies are not mine. They come from above me”. he said “ if I don’t do it someone else will”. I have a feeling a lot of what the post office and individuals did came from above.

Yes.
And I think the over-riding un-written un-documented instruction from above was to get the PO showing big profits so that it could be sold off with massive bonuses and share deals for the execs and maybe a Knighthood for one particular person.