poppy's

[Deleted member 18588]

Two weeks ago we visited Tyne Cot Cemetery at Passchendaele where there were an estimated 860,000 German and UK and Commonwealth casualties (killed, injured and missing). And although this ToL installation may to some feel a bit 'superficial', 'obvious' or inward looking - it is very poignant for me in that with there being 880,000 poppies that's - for me - one poppy for each casualty from that one battlefield - and that makes that vast carpet of poppies awesome in the most moving way,

On a personal basis I have tried to instill an understanding of the Great War in my children by making it personal to them. So whilst they were taught about it at school - and my daughter went a school trip to Ypres - they have used in their projects the photo we have of my grandfather in uniform and mounted on his horse in France in 1914 and talked to them of where he served and what happened to him (he was in the Scottish Horse - the mounted regiment of the Black Watch). They've also read the letter a mate sent to him from the trenches towards the end of the war - my grandfather was recuperating in hospital back in Perthshire (having been gassed). We also took them to the French National War Memorial at Verdun - and that has certainly stuck in the minds.

Hopefully through that we have managed to pass on the understanding of what happened back then - and that has been happening since that war that didn't end all wars.

Very similar story, we visited Ypres and Tyne Cot 16 years ago with our two sons the elder of whom was, at that time nearly 16 so only weeks or months younger than some whose deaths were remembered there. When they realised that it certainly brought it home to them.

Two hulking great sports mad teenagers suddenly deep in thought and later full of questions. Now the younger one is, as I said, a teacher trying to explain the futility of all such conflicts to 10 & 11 year olds and sometimes being amazed by the perceptiveness of their questions.

Most pertinently to us as a family was being able to visit the grave at Etaples of my great-uncle with my mother, then aged 80, thus enabling her to fulfill a promise she made to her grandmother in the late 1920's as "Grannie Shaw" a poor working-class Brummie was never likely to be able to see her son's grave.

Memories live on and hopefully parents and grandparents will continue to impress upon the young that war is not some game played on a computer but that it has a devastating effect upon the lives of all.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I also noticed the other day that when I got a poppy from a seller that the 'standard' poppy and pin was just one of several things they now have on sale. There were wrist bands, lapel badges, mini wreaths and a few other things, some of which are obviously there to appeal to younger people. Which I thought was great as they are modernising a bit to engage the younger generation, whilst at the same time still having the traditional poppy if people wanted it.

 

[Rooter]

Thought i would pop down there on my lunch break, see pics. couldnt believe how many people there were! never seen it so busy ever!!

 

[CMAC]

Thought i would pop down there on my lunch break, see pics. couldnt believe how many people there were! never seen it so busy ever!!

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is that today or on opening day?

 

[Val]

To be fair, I thought the TOL were very clear that this was a piece of artwork but with more solemn undertones connected with the act of remembrance. As someone else said, if the artwork, memorial or whatever label you want to tag on it promotes these busloads of Japanese, European and American tourists (and those from other parts of the world) to spend a few seconds contemplating wars across the globe from WW1 onwards then surely it's done what it set out to do

I like the way you dressed that up Homer but IMO vistors right now will see it as a visitors attraction in the same way they see, The Shard, Tower Bridge, St Pauls etc and I find that very sad indeed.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I like the way you dressed that up Homer but IMO vistors right now will see it as a visitors attraction in the same way they see, The Shard, Tower Bridge, St Pauls etc and I find that very sad indeed.

Why is that sad?

 

[Val]

Why is that sad?

Because it shouldn't be a visitor attraction in the same mould as those I mentioned.

 

[Rooter]

is that today or on opening day?

That was today lunchtime. it was rammed, and guy in the office comes over tower bridge on his way to work and says its been like that for weeks. every day its rammed.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I like the way you dressed that up Homer but IMO vistors right now will see it as a visitors attraction in the same way they see, The Shard, Tower Bridge, St Pauls etc and I find that very sad indeed.

Absolutely with you on that Val. Inevitable I suppose. But sad nontheless.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Absolutely with you on that Val. Inevitable I suppose. But sad nontheless.

But isn't there a bigger picture in that tens or hundreds of thousands of people are being made aware of what the poppies represent.

I am sure there will be some who turn up and have absolutely no idea what they represent, but the vast majority will, just out of curiosity if nothing else. And even if they do treat it as a tourist attraction, they are still seeing poppies that mean something and it will cause them to think. It is raising awareness of the poppies and what they mean and this is especially important for the younger generations. And if it becomes a tourist attraction then so what, you could argue that is good as more people will see them. And surely that is a reason to be cheerful and not sad?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

HK - Agreed. Only good, very inspiring.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

When I was there

 

[North Mimms]

There's nothing wrong with viewing it purely as a stunning Art Installation.
But there is more to it than that.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

When I was there

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I don't think I'll bother - I can admire from afar.

It'll be good to see church packed on Remembrance Sunday (wishful thinking) - but if you won't be going then why not? You go for hatchings, matchings and dispatchings - so why not for Remembrance as it should be as important as these other personal occasions.

 

[Rooter]

I don't think I'll bother - I can admire from afar.

It'll be good to see church packed on Remembrance Sunday (wishful thinking) - but if you won't be going then why not? You go for hatchings, matchings and dispatchings - so why not for Remembrance as it should be as important as these other personal occasions.

Because i do not follow a religion, don't need to be religious to respect the soldiers (et all) who paid the ultimate price.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I don't think I'll bother - I can admire from afar.

It'll be good to see church packed on Remembrance Sunday (wishful thinking) - but if you won't be going then why not? You go for hatchings, matchings and dispatchings - so why not for Remembrance as it should be as important as these other personal occasions.

A picture will never do its full justice - it doesn't capture the emotion of the area

It gave me a tear in my eye

And believe church has nothing to do with and shouldn't be a part of this discussion

 

[Val]

But isn't there a bigger picture in that tens or hundreds of thousands of people are being made aware of what the poppies represent.

I am sure there will be some who turn up and have absolutely no idea what they represent, but the vast majority will, just out of curiosity if nothing else. And even if they do treat it as a tourist attraction, they are still seeing poppies that mean something and it will cause them to think. It is raising awareness of the poppies and what they mean and this is especially important for the younger generations. And if it becomes a tourist attraction then so what, you could argue that is good as more people will see them. And surely that is a reason to be cheerful and not sad?

Im unsure if you miss my point or choose to ignore it.

First and foremost the poppy display should be all about remembering the fallen in all wars, I have to say it looks amazing and agree it that it should help educate those who chose to be educated on the great war and subsequent wars that followed BUT for me once it becomes a visitors attraction the remembrance side is quickly forgotten and you will get many people who will visit just to see the display and have no thought about what it represents and that for me is sad.

 

[bluewolf]

It'll be good to see church packed on Remembrance Sunday (wishful thinking) - but if you won't be going then why not? You go for hatchings, matchings and dispatchings - so why not for Remembrance as it should be as important as these other personal occasions.

I will not be going into a Church on remembrance Sunday as I'm not a hypocrite. I am not religious in the slightest. I didn't get married in a Church. My Children are not Christened. My Funeral will be a Humanist affair..

Instead, I will be paying tribute at the village War Memorial. I will be sparing a moment for all those lost in War. I will be paying a personal tribute to both my Grandfathers who fought on opposite sides of WW2. I will be remembering all those on both sides of the conflicts who lost their lives.

I have no issue with the ToL installation. I can see both sides of the argument. In my opinion, the fact that they've decided to use a specific number of Poppies to pay remembrance to those who lost their life on only one side means that it isn't a place that allows me to pay my fullest respects to my relatives. It does however, bring a beautiful scene into everyone's consciousness. If that makes people stop for a second and think about the particular futility of War, then it's served it's purpose..

 

[Ethan]

In post #40 you attempted to place in context the offending article.

You then proceeded to attempt to justify the journalist's comments by suggesting that his point may have been too subtle for many to understand.

That form of assumed intellectual superiority is both smug and futile since once it is identified it weakens any further arguments from the source.

You said:

"And who, apart from some smug Guardian journalist and, of course our intellectual master from Bearwood Lakes, can say that in recognising the sacrifice made by British servicemen we overlook the same losses of our allies and, at that time, our enemies."

I didn't say any such thing. In fact the point I was thinking of was more about the horror of war and the supply of cannon and trench fodder on all sides, with what seems like scant regard for human life by politicians painting a picture of a glorious struggle when the truth was terrible conditions, disease and starvation, poor medical facilities and execution of soldiers with what we now recognise as shell shock or PTSD.

Siegfried Sassoon and Wilfried Owen probably described it pretty well.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

In fact the point I was thinking of was more about the horror of war and the supply of cannon and trench fodder on all sides, with what seems like scant regard for human life by politicians painting a picture of a glorious struggle when the truth was terrible conditions, disease and starvation, poor medical facilities and execution of soldiers with what we now recognise as shell shock or PTSD.

Siegfried Sassoon and Wilfried Owen probably described it pretty well.

I think it best that we leave aside the other issue regarding tone since, as I have already said, it was not my intention to launch a personal attack and I might have been better advised to delay my remarks until a time when my emotions were more stable.

I had just returned from visiting the display at the Tower and was still raw from the reminder of just what each of the poppies represent.

Hopefully my subsequent remarks have shown that my concern is not just for the fallen amongst British forces but also for those of all nations involved in any war and for those that they left behind. Sadly mankind still struggles to learn from the lessons of the past.

You mention those that were executed for so called cowardice and I remember that one of the most moving memorials at the National Arboretum is to those Shot At Dawn. If nothing else we are, nowadays, more understanding of PTSD and its effects.

Also your post refers to Sassoon and his poetry, yet his early war writings were of a more jingoistic tone. Sad that he should then have to experience what he did which, of course, determined his later works.