poppy's
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SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
Seriously Ethan, take a little time out and reflect on what kind of message you are giving out. For most it seems like you take the intellectual high ground on most issues and cannot understand how anyone with an IQ lower than your own is worthy of a opinion.
Ethan
Money List Winner
Socket, it isn't a matter of intellectual high ground, but if something is said that I think is wrong, then I have the right to offer what I think is correct. People can choose to accept or reject what I say. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, but everyone has the right to comment on other people's opinions, and many do on mine. Although I dispute that is what I do, what is wrong with the intellectual high ground? Isn't it better than the alternative?
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Couldn't agree more. Went yesterday & was there for the Roll of Honour & the Last Post. Very moving, would have been even more so if all present could have kept their traps shut.
Went to a match at Hillsborough last year. Afterwards lad and I went to the memorial - and quite a lot of fans (of cardiff and Sh Wed) looking on silently and no photos being taken. That's remembrance in my mind. But I fear not how the ToL installation is viewed today. Which is a great pity and about which nothing can be done. Though the thought of busloads of Japanese tourists yacking away getting their photo's taken by each other in front of it does rather make me reflect.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I rather get what he's on about.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
It's possible to have an opinion without insulting peoples intelligence and you seem to reach for that card a little too often. No doubt you are a bright guy in your field of work but that does not automatically mean you have a better grasp of everyday life. In fact I have known a number of people that are very intelligent but with little common sense.
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Ethan
Money List Winner
If people perceive me calling UKIP policies, for example, stupid as a personal attack, then they are missing the point. However, if people attack me, I will respond.
I notice that several other people in this thread have supported the Guardian article, but haven't been attacked like I have been for it. That looks rather like ad hominem attacks on me, not on the arguments made.
D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
In post #40 you attempted to place in context the offending article.
You then proceeded to attempt to justify the journalist's comments by suggesting that his point may have been too subtle for many to understand.
That form of assumed intellectual superiority is both smug and futile since once it is identified it weakens any further arguments from the source.
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
But isn't part of the function of the poppys you are talking about is that it is an art installation. And art is for looking at, taking pictures of, discussing, having an opinion on? The Hillsborough memorial is more of a 'traditional memorial' for want of a better description where tourists having selfies in front of it is probably less appropriate, although I have no doubt it does happen.
D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
Please be assured that my intention was not to single out you and your views for attack.
Rather it was a criticism of the dismissive and almost contemptuous attitude you were displaying towards those who did not appreciate the journalist's remarks.
Like yourself I strongly value the right of all to their opinions (even Guardian or Daily Mail journalists) but I believe equally forcefully that we none of us have a right to be dismissive of those whose opinions we may not share.
G
guest100718
Guest
Have you been to see it?
D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
Agree very strongly with this view.
If only a miniscule proportion of those visiting this site now find themselves considering for the first time the futility of war and its devastating effects upon all involved then, in my view, the whole operation will have been worthwhile.
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
Good analogy this. I would like to think the TOL display organisers were more about rememberance than creating the tourist attraction that it has become, however im not so sure unfortunately.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I read this as meaning the many in the broader world outside the bounds of this community who are 'up in arms' (poor phrase I know) over this - so those here taking 'offence' by taking it as @Ethan lecturing us I think are being a touch too sensitive or indeed a little disingenuous. Some of the ranting rubbish I have heard on phone-ins over this article suggest that @Ethan is quite correct.
But I suppose that this it is what you come to expect from folks who do not actually read the words written, but either read between the lines and create their own version of what the commentator has written, or get their facts second hand from the first lot.
To be fair, I thought the TOL were very clear that this was a piece of artwork but with more solemn undertones connected with the act of remembrance. As someone else said, if the artwork, memorial or whatever label you want to tag on it promotes these busloads of Japanese, European and American tourists (and those from other parts of the world) to spend a few seconds contemplating wars across the globe from WW1 onwards then surely it's done what it set out to do
D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
But now you, like Ethan and the journalist before you, are making the same assumption on the thoughts and motives of those who visit this display or wear a poppy.
Whilst you may find it convenient to your argument to do this please do not suggest that I or others have entered this debate without first researching.
TOL?
G
guest100718
Guest
Tower of London
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I am not suggesting that you have not researched the issue - but I have certainly heard quite a lot of voices elsewhere criticising the article on the basis of what they think has been written.
Two weeks ago we visited Tyne Cot Cemetery at Passchendaele where there were an estimated 860,000 German and UK and Commonwealth casualties (killed, injured and missing). And although this ToL installation may to some feel a bit 'superficial', 'obvious' or inward looking - it is very poignant for me in that with there being 880,000 poppies that's - for me - one poppy for each casualty from that one battlefield - and that makes that vast carpet of poppies awesome in the most moving way,
On a personal basis I have tried to instill an understanding of the Great War in my children by making it personal to them. So whilst they were taught about it at school - and my daughter went a school trip to Ypres - they have used in their projects the photo we have of my grandfather in uniform and mounted on his horse in France in 1914 and talked to them of where he served and what happened to him (he was in the Scottish Horse - the mounted regiment of the Black Watch). They've also read the letter a mate sent to him from the trenches towards the end of the war - my grandfather was recuperating in hospital back in Perthshire (having been gassed). We also took them to the French National War Memorial at Verdun - and that has certainly stuck in the minds.
Hopefully through that we have managed to pass on the understanding of what happened back then - and that has been happening since that war that didn't end all wars.
TOL - Tower of London I presume.
I heard about the poppies at the Tower at its inception. Seemed like a great idea to me. As they have developed and spread I still think that. They are going to be sold for £25 each, proceeds to British Legion. Win win.
It works, to me, as both art and part of the Remberance. That people are taking selfies with it is just how modern life is. I don't get the selfie thing, a bit narcissistic for me, but it keeps a lot of people happy and it is not going to change so we just have to accept it. That this thread has been going on for so long suggests that this display has worked, it is getting people talking about the subject matter. Personally I find it very moving.
I heard about the poppies at the Tower at its inception. Seemed like a great idea to me. As they have developed and spread I still think that. They are going to be sold for £25 each, proceeds to British Legion. Win win.
It works, to me, as both art and part of the Remberance. That people are taking selfies with it is just how modern life is. I don't get the selfie thing, a bit narcissistic for me, but it keeps a lot of people happy and it is not going to change so we just have to accept it. That this thread has been going on for so long suggests that this display has worked, it is getting people talking about the subject matter. Personally I find it very moving.
