Politics. a wind of change?

[Deleted member 1147]

Surely distrust in the system isn't a new thing! Growing up in the '8's & '90's we seemed to have a new scandal of some sort each month (especially with Tory MP's and rent boys).

I don't think trust levels have changed, and the politicians, police and lawyers themselves certainly haven't.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I think a lot has to do with the implications and (real or perceived) fear of globalisation/easy movement of people and also the widespread implementation of technology that has reached a tipping point. And the clever way that Trump and Brexit have latched onto that as a way of winning their elections.

There are a lot of disenfranchised people who now blame these issues for their woes. They lose their jobs through their jobs being outsourced or their industries being decimated through cheaper competition from abroad or no longer being relevant. They see more foreign faces and assume they are taking the jobs from the indigenous population. They see how society is changing, in their mind for the worst, due to the influx of the foreigners. This narrative is perpetuated by some areas of the media, whether it be a large proportion of the print media in the UK or TV channels/talk radio in the US.

So you get a lot of different types of disenfranchised people who are fed up and vote for a change from what they perceive is the political elite who have let this happen. And Trump/Brexit have capitalised on this by selling them a vision of mostly returning to how things used to be (Make America great again, take back our sovereignty etc etc). Where as the people who have generally befitted from globalisation kind of vote for the status quo. And whilst it is a bit crude and a generalisation, the less well educated, unemployed etc are more likely to have suffered from globalisation and technology making traditional jobs obsolete and are more open to the answers and vision that Brexit/Trump provide.

Plus if course there is a small section of people who are just plain stupid and naturally racist, but that is a relatively small section I think.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

For me one of the biggest impacts on politics over the past 20 years is the ever growing impact of the media

Social media has grown massively over the last decade and whilst places like Facebook and Twitter have brought people together from all corners of the world they have also provided a platform for political agendas and the spreading of lies , hatred and influence of any side of the political fence

In the UK we also have two publications along with their respective websites who provide a platform for whatever they see will appeal to the masses - these two publications appeal especially to the social benefit class of the U.K. That are willing to sponge but not willing to work for it - they read these rags to get into the lives of their favourite reality star and at the same time follow along with what ever political agenda that publication are getting behind

People grab and believe headlines being plastered over papers and websites - they get sucked in by those headlines without actually researching everything

Because the media can plaster how bad the world is at the moment as soon as someone says "we can make US/UK etc great again" straight they have that person attention without them needing to find out how they will make the country great .

 

[Blue in Munich]

Surely distrust in the system isn't a new thing! Growing up in the '8's & '90's we seemed to have a new scandal of some sort each month (especially with Tory MP's and rent boys).

I don't think trust levels have changed, and the politicians, police and lawyers themselves certainly haven't.

No the trust levels in politicians haven't changed as far as I'm concerned; didn't trust them then & don't trust them now. What has changed IMO is people's level of tolerance insofar as they are no longer prepared to take the same degree of establishment lies without kicking back.

 

[Sweep]

I think a lot has to do with the implications and (real or perceived) fear of globalisation/easy movement of people and also the widespread implementation of technology that has reached a tipping point. And the clever way that Trump and Brexit have latched onto that as a way of winning their elections.

There are a lot of disenfranchised people who now blame these issues for their woes. They lose their jobs through their jobs being outsourced or their industries being decimated through cheaper competition from abroad or no longer being relevant. They see more foreign faces and assume they are taking the jobs from the indigenous population. They see how society is changing, in their mind for the worst, due to the influx of the foreigners. This narrative is perpetuated by some areas of the media, whether it be a large proportion of the print media in the UK or TV channels/talk radio in the US.

So you get a lot of different types of disenfranchised people who are fed up and vote for a change from what they perceive is the political elite who have let this happen. And Trump/Brexit have capitalised on this by selling them a vision of mostly returning to how things used to be (Make America great again, take back our sovereignty etc etc). Where as the people who have generally befitted from globalisation kind of vote for the status quo. And whilst it is a bit crude and a generalisation, the less well educated, unemployed etc are more likely to have suffered from globalisation and technology making traditional jobs obsolete and are more open to the answers and vision that Brexit/Trump provide.

Plus if course there is a small section of people who are just plain stupid and naturally racist, but that is a relatively small section I think.

What a shame. That was all going so well until you generalised about the thickos, the less well educated, the stupid, the unemployed, the racists. You are right though. It's is a crude analogy. Very, very crude.
Within minutes of Mrs. Clinton's concession a friend of mine who should know better posted that maybe it was time to stop letting the people have a say, because they lack the intelligence required. Talk about taking it for granted! Just try saying that to a starving woman in North Korea. Because do you know what you have when democracy is lost? You have nothing. No say. You are in fact a nobody. The ruling parties don't care about you. You have no recourse.
If this election and indeed our own referendum teaches us anything, it's the value of democracy. Clearly there is something happening here and everyone needs to take notice. Dismissing it with assumptions that those who voted this way must be having it tough because they are uneducated and have crap jobs or no jobs is just part of the problem.
Maybe (and I know this is radical) we should just take it at face value. Trump said he wants to put America and Americans first instead of being the worlds policeman, losing out on cheap imports and suffering from illegal immigration etc. If you think about it, putting your country first is kind of a prerequisite for the leader of any country. Maybe those who voted to leave the EU weren't thick or racist after all. Maybe they felt we could do a better job of running our own country without deferring to other counties in Europe and without their continual interference and continual demands for money. Maybe people in the US and UK think it's time to take care of our own, that being more inward looking may not be such a bad thing. After all, neither country seems to have done too well when we started and got involved in wars abroad. Maybe people think we should put our own house in order before we try to fix the problems of the world.

 

[Hacker Khan]

What a shame. That was all going so well until you generalised about the thickos, the less well educated, the stupid, the unemployed, the racists. You are right though. It's is a crude analogy. Very, very crude.
Within minutes of Mrs. Clinton's concession a friend of mine who should know better posted that maybe it was time to stop letting the people have a say, because they lack the intelligence required. Talk about taking it for granted! Just try saying that to a starving woman in North Korea. Because do you know what you have when democracy is lost? You have nothing. No say. You are in fact a nobody. The ruling parties don't care about you. You have no recourse.
If this election and indeed our own referendum teaches us anything, it's the value of democracy. Clearly there is something happening here and everyone needs to take notice. Dismissing it with assumptions that those who voted this way must be having it tough because they are uneducated and have crap jobs or no jobs is just part of the problem.
Maybe (and I know this is radical) we should just take it at face value. Trump said he wants to put America and Americans first instead of being the worlds policeman, losing out on cheap imports and suffering from illegal immigration etc. If you think about it, putting your country first is kind of a prerequisite for the leader of any country. Maybe those who voted to leave the EU weren't thick or racist after all. Maybe they felt we could do a better job of running our own country without deferring to other counties in Europe and without their continual interference and continual demands for money. Maybe people in the US and UK think it's time to take care of our own, that being more inward looking may not be such a bad thing. After all, neither country seems to have done too well when we started and got involved in wars abroad. Maybe people think we should put our own house in order before we try to fix the problems of the world.

Could you please change the record. No where do I say that only thick, racist people voted for Trump/Brexit. And nowhere did I say anything about dismissing it or them. Quite the opposite as a rise of right to far right leaning govenments across the world is a very scary thing in my opinion. As history would attest.

You are reading things into my post to fit your narrative, just block me if I upset you so much. Statistically I was summising that there were certain sections of society that are more effected by the globalisation/increased technology replacing workers trend. And these people were more open to the messages and vision put forwards by Trump/Brexit.

Statistically it was proven with brexit that if you were less well educated, in poverty then you were more likely to vote Brexit. That is a statistical fact, https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack-opportunities no mater how much you dislike it or repeat over and over again that not all Brexit voters are less well educated/racist. I know that, I've never said they are. I was just trying to come up with a theory on why the campaigns managed successfully to garner so many votes.

 

[Val]

The fear amongst many of what Trump will bring is unbelievable. Lots of his policies won't overly affect day to day life in the U.K. and I genuinely believe there is a chance he could just about get to the aim his strap line was to "make America great again".

One thing is for sure, he'll build a team around him with the same drive and vision he has and he'll throw his all into it.

I for one hope he is successful.

As to the question, I do believe there is a change. Look at what we have in Scotland now, who would have thought you could ever count labour MP's on one hand up here?

 

[Hobbit]

I think a lot has to do with the implications and (real or perceived) fear of globalisation/easy movement of people and also the widespread implementation of technology that has reached a tipping point. And the clever way that Trump and Brexit have latched onto that as a way of winning their elections.

There are a lot of disenfranchised people who now blame these issues for their woes. They lose their jobs through their jobs being outsourced or their industries being decimated through cheaper competition from abroad or no longer being relevant. They see more foreign faces and assume they are taking the jobs from the indigenous population. They see how society is changing, in their mind for the worst, due to the influx of the foreigners. This narrative is perpetuated by some areas of the media, whether it be a large proportion of the print media in the UK or TV channels/talk radio in the US.

So you get a lot of different types of disenfranchised people who are fed up and vote for a change from what they perceive is the political elite who have let this happen. And Trump/Brexit have capitalised on this by selling them a vision of mostly returning to how things used to be (Make America great again, take back our sovereignty etc etc). Where as the people who have generally befitted from globalisation kind of vote for the status quo. And whilst it is a bit crude and a generalisation, the less well educated, unemployed etc are more likely to have suffered from globalisation and technology making traditional jobs obsolete and are more open to the answers and vision that Brexit/Trump provide.

Plus if course there is a small section of people who are just plain stupid and naturally racist, but that is a relatively small section I think.

Excellent post, and nice not to see a Daily Mash link attached. I can neither add or take away from any of it.

You've only got to look at the where the vast amount of heavy industry is in the world, and where it was to realise where the affected and disenfranchised will be.

 

[SocketRocket]

I think a lot has to do with the implications and (real or perceived) fear of globalisation/easy movement of people and also the widespread implementation of technology that has reached a tipping point. And the clever way that Trump and Brexit have latched onto that as a way of winning their elections.

There are a lot of disenfranchised people who now blame these issues for their woes. They lose their jobs through their jobs being outsourced or their industries being decimated through cheaper competition from abroad or no longer being relevant. They see more foreign faces and assume they are taking the jobs from the indigenous population. They see how society is changing, in their mind for the worst, due to the influx of the foreigners. This narrative is perpetuated by some areas of the media, whether it be a large proportion of the print media in the UK or TV channels/talk radio in the US.

So you get a lot of different types of disenfranchised people who are fed up and vote for a change from what they perceive is the political elite who have let this happen. And Trump/Brexit have capitalised on this by selling them a vision of mostly returning to how things used to be (Make America great again, take back our sovereignty etc etc). Where as the people who have generally befitted from globalisation kind of vote for the status quo. And whilst it is a bit crude and a generalisation, the less well educated, unemployed etc are more likely to have suffered from globalisation and technology making traditional jobs obsolete and are more open to the answers and vision that Brexit/Trump provide.

Plus if course there is a small section of people who are just plain stupid and naturally racist, but that is a relatively small section I think.

It is IMO a mistake to consider the views of people that have not had or been given the opportunity of what many call a good education. Intelligence is not a measurement of what qualifications someone has but their potential to learn and understand. I have known some incredibly intelligent people in my life who didn't even have a certificate to swim a width. We can look back in history and pick out so many people who achieved so much without a 'good education'. On the other hand I have known some people with no common sense or ability to understand politics who have been brilliant mathematicians who were educated at Ox-bridge.

Even though someone may live in deprived conditions or experienced changes that have made them unemployed or feeling disenfranchised they are seldom stupid or incapable of having clarity of thought that can make decisions without the influence of news papers or social media. I am more than a little sick and disappointed by the attitudes of those using peoples education and intelligence as reasons that they are confused and mislead. I believe this argument is used more as a convenient 'get out' excuse by some; who cant get to grips with the fact their view lost in an election or referendum.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Could you please change the record. No where do I say that only thick, racist people voted for Trump/Brexit. And nowhere did I say anything about dismissing it or them. Quite the opposite as a rise of right to far right leaning govenments across the world is a very scary thing in my opinion. As history would attest.

You are reading things into my post to fit your narrative, just block me if I upset you so much. Statistically I was summising that there were certain sections of society that are more effected by the globalisation/increased technology replacing workers trend. And these people were more open to the messages and vision put forwards by Trump/Brexit.

Statistically it was proven with brexit that if you were less well educated, in poverty then you were more likely to vote Brexit. That is a statistical fact, https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack-opportunities no mater how much you dislike it or repeat over and over again that not all Brexit voters are less well educated/racist. I know that, I've never said they are. I was just trying to come up with a theory on why the campaigns managed successfully to garner so many votes.

I agreed with most of your previous post and as I said earlier it is, in my view, the responsibility of politicians to engage with those people and address their concerns.

Note I do not say solve them because sometimes those concerns are not based in reality but that is where the politicians come into it; they should be explaining what are the real issues and what can or should be done.

However, I do think you have fallen into the trap of generalisation regarding the less well educated, certainly in the US Presidential election where the stats seem to show that the majority of white college graduates who voted, did so for Trump.

It would, therefore, appear that the middle classes feel equally as disengaged from the existing political processes.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I think the wind of change is blowing through politics at home and abroad and the main reason, if some what simplistic, is that people have greater access to social media and whether they are aware or not, they are being subjected to political views all the time. For some it'll prick some interest and they'll look into things further and form they'll own opinions. Others will go with the flow. Either way, come the time to make the big decisions the voting public everything they need to make a choice. It's only going increase. I think there is definitely a political awakening amongst the younger end of the population and that will I think begin to bring its own political changes in the years to come

 

[Sweep]

Could you please change the record. No where do I say that only thick, racist people voted for Trump/Brexit. And nowhere did I say anything about dismissing it or them. Quite the opposite as a rise of right to far right leaning govenments across the world is a very scary thing in my opinion. As history would attest.

You are reading things into my post to fit your narrative, just block me if I upset you so much. Statistically I was summising that there were certain sections of society that are more effected by the globalisation/increased technology replacing workers trend. And these people were more open to the messages and vision put forwards by Trump/Brexit.

Statistically it was proven with brexit that if you were less well educated, in poverty then you were more likely to vote Brexit. That is a statistical fact, https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack-opportunities no mater how much you dislike it or repeat over and over again that not all Brexit voters are less well educated/racist. I know that, I've never said they are. I was just trying to come up with a theory on why the campaigns managed successfully to garner so many votes.

Me change the record? All we hear from you when seemingly every vote goes against your opinions is that the people who voted against your preferred candidate are uneducated blah, blah, blah.
You say you haven't said that those who voted for Brexit were uneducated and then 8 lines later you say just that. In the case of the US election your analogy is incorrect as has been pointed out by others.

However, the new leader of the free world tells us we must be more conciliatory so let me rephrase my post, as follows:
I agree with almost all of your post except for your assertion that uneducated people who therefore have poor jobs are at the heart of this change in the political landscape. I think it is much more widespread than that.

There, is that better? 😀

 

[Sweep]

It is IMO a mistake to consider the views of people that have not had or been given the opportunity of what many call a good education. Intelligence is not a measurement of what qualifications someone has but their potential to learn and understand. I have known some incredibly intelligent people in my life who didn't even have a certificate to swim a width. We can look back in history and pick out so many people who achieved so much without a 'good education'. On the other hand I have known some people with no common sense or ability to understand politics who have been brilliant mathematicians who were educated at Ox-bridge.

Even though someone may live in deprived conditions or experienced changes that have made them unemployed or feeling disenfranchised they are seldom stupid or incapable of having clarity of thought that can make decisions without the influence of news papers or social media. I am more than a little sick and disappointed by the attitudes of those using peoples education and intelligence as reasons that they are confused and mislead. I believe this argument is used more as a convenient 'get out' excuse by some; who cant get to grips with the fact their view lost in an election or referendum.

Excellent post

 

[chippa1909]

The fear amongst many of what Trump will bring is unbelievable. Lots of his policies won't overly affect day to day life in the U.K. and I genuinely believe there is a chance he could just about get to the aim his strap line was to "make America great again".

One thing is for sure, he'll build a team around him with the same drive and vision he has and he'll throw his all into it.

I for one hope he is successful.

As to the question, I do believe there is a change. Look at what we have in Scotland now, who would have thought you could ever count labour MP's on one hand up here?

Or one finger. :thup:

 

[BubbaP]

....
Statistically it was proven with brexit that if you were less well educated, in poverty then you were more likely to vote Brexit. That is a statistical fact, https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack-opportunities ....

I was also pretty on board with #42 , but with the above feel you have lost it.

These are facts
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/eu-referendum/electorate-and-count-information

I am sure deep down you do know that voting is anonymous.

The report you linked looks well done, some interesting analysis of surveys, some interesting derived indicators and drawn conclusions. But voting facts, no sorry. Proven, no.

Would you consider this is fact? "80% of cats prefer Whiskers cat food" ?

 

[Tashyboy]

I was also pretty on board with #42 , but with the above feel you have lost it.

These are facts
http://www.electoralcommission.org....u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information

I am sure deep down you do know that voting is anonymous.

The report you linked looks well done, some interesting analysis of surveys, some interesting derived indicators and drawn conclusions. But voting facts, no sorry. Proven, no.

Would you consider this is fact? "80% of cats prefer Whiskers cat food" ?

Whiskers or cat food, nah they prefer Mice. 👍😁

 

[Doon frae Troon]

You can be uneducated and astute with a searching mind and you can be well educated and gullible with a closed mind.
I think the UK is split 50/50 on that combination at the mo.
Some still living on 1950's values and frightened of change, others just selfish and greedy.

I have said for a while that western world politics will shift to the left.
I just hope that happens without bloodshed.


Interestingly I agree with SR's #49.
Eough......must go and wash my hands now

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The fear amongst many of what Trump will bring is unbelievable. Lots of his policies won't overly affect day to day life in the U.K. and I genuinely believe there is a chance he could just about get to the aim his strap line was to "make America great again".

One thing is for sure, he'll build a team around him with the same drive and vision he has and he'll throw his all into it.

I for one hope he is successful.

As to the question, I do believe there is a change. Look at what we have in Scotland now, who would have thought you could ever count labour MP's on one hand up here?

We should all hope he is successful, because the alternative that his views and policies suggest might come about, is not pretty

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Is it only me or has Trump got elected on a left wing - almost socialist - agenda. The rich are getting richer at the expense of the poor; there is no trickle down from the rich to the poor; and the poor are carrying the burden of austerity. Come in Bernie Sanders, Jeremy Corbyn?

 

[FairwayDodger]

I think the landscape has indeed shifted. We live now in an era where populism and nationalism is prominent. In fact it's just not correct to talk about voting in terms of intelligence or education levels because, increasingly, people are voting with their heart rather than their heads. Currently the right wing have tapped into feelings of frustration mainly among the sort of people who in years gone by enjoyed a certain amount of privilege by virtue of their country of birth, their race, their gender; some or all of these. Indeed, the likes of Trump and Farage are walking a tightrope by promulgating their socially right wing agenda while trying to avoid stumbling into more neo-fascist territory.

It's hard to counter that with "steady hand on the tiller" type candidates and an egalitarian philosophy.

I think the balance will swing back again but not sure at the moment what will revitalise liberal politics in the short term. Sadly, in America, I fear it will only come as a reaction to the inevitable injustices that the new republican administration will enact.

This also explains the "make America great again" nonsense. America was never great, not for *all* its people. At times it was down right awful! However straight white men can look back to a period where life was probably an easier ride than it is now and yearn for those days, oblivious to the fact that they are still top of the heap.