Politics. a wind of change?

[Region3]

I've been listening to R4 this morning and the similarity between supporters on the losing side in both the US election and EU referendum are striking.

Totally baffled how anyone could make the wrong choice.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

There was overwhelming complacency shown by the Democrats.

Basically the upper echelons of the party felt it was Hilary's turn having previously lost out to Obama.

If there is any good to come from this and Brexit it would be for the politicians to start listening to their electorate and address their concerns. The Remain side in the referendum offered nothing more in their official campaign than "more of the same".

As I have often said people's fears over immigration may be unrealistic and often based upon nothing more than anecdotal evidence but that will not be resolved by ignoring them.

The same is true in the USA. Clinton represented the status quo whilst Trump appears to be providing some hope to those with concerns. I am pretty certain that, as here, most if not all of their concerns are not based in fact an, in any event, Donald will not be able to deliver. The important thing is, however, that he seems to be listening and not patronising.

 

[Spear-Chucker]

#1 So educated people vote one way and thicko's another? Have I understood that right? Maybe it is believing that that has allowed Trump and others to prosper. #2 Many people feel let down by politicians and Trump is the anti establishment option. That is very appealing to a lot of people who feel forgotten.

Politicians need to get back to a few basics. Answer questions, yes the one being asked of you, with a straight answer. Accept when things are wrong and not working, have a plan to solve it. You can't solve everything but don't try to kid us that all is well. We are not stupid. Be honest. Start with this in mind and people will begin to believe again.

F
#1 Far from it - perhaps I've allied lack of education with ignorance, perhaps not... I fully understand the desperate plight of many Americans particularly those in rural and run down economic areas who pine for the golden days of 000's of manufacturing jobs. They're not coming back (costs too much) and only diversification of skills for one will kick start these areas. Bet not many voters considered that when ticking the box, they've just believed Trump when he says manufacturing jobs will be back. Would love to be proved wrong btw.

#2 Have nothing but sympathy for this - the live by the sword capitalist mantra that is US culture has created powerful and wealthy families that will run things for many years. I would favour not breaking these houses down by smashing a wall with a sledge hammer (and allowing them to be simply rebuilt) but dismantling them brick by brick so they can never do it again. That's a tough proposition however.

 

[dufferman]

Decline in standards of education.
For Brexit and Trump the pollsters kept telling us that it was mainly going to be poorly educated white working class males who were voting for them.
Either they were wrong or there are one hell of a lot of poorly educated white males in the world today.

It's so easy to point the finger at "stupid" people.

Maybe the issue is that the education system is wrong. I've never needed to use Pythogora's theory in my day to day life. But if I had been educated about politics, I might have a better idea of what's going on in Brexit, rather than relying on news coverage / newspapers / social media / those with an agenda to get info and form my opinion from.

But hey, let's just call the majority of the population stupid and feel that we're better than everyone, right?

 

[freddielong]

You ain't seen nothing yet, just wait till the far right get in, in France and Germany over the next couple of years.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

It's so easy to point the finger at "stupid" people.

Maybe the issue is that the education system is wrong. I've never needed to use Pythogora's theory in my day to day life. But if I had been educated about politics, I might have a better idea of what's going on in Brexit, rather than relying on news coverage / newspapers / social media / those with an agenda to get info and form my opinion from.

But hey, let's just call the majority of the population stupid and feel that we're better than everyone, right?

Note the line which says that "Either they were either wrong or there are one hell of a lot of poorly educated white males in the world today".

Maybe I was suggesting that pollsters were wrong!?!

Maybe pollsters, the press, all the political scientists out there keep telling the world that the only dissatisfied people are those I mentioned, but in fact many more people are dissatisfied and being ignored?

 

[Crazyface]

So educated people vote one way and thicko's another? Have I understood that right? Maybe it is believing that that has allowed Trump and others to prosper. Many people feel let down by politicians and Trump is the anti establishment option. That is very appealing to a lot of people who feel forgotten.

Politicians need to get back to a few basics. Answer questions, yes the one being asked of you, with a straight answer. Accept when things are wrong and not working, have a plan to solve it. You can't solve everything but don't try to kid us that all is well. We are not stupid. Be honest. Start with this in mind and people will begin to believe again.

This please with knobs on.

 

[dufferman]

Note the line which says that "Either they were either wrong or there are one hell of a lot of poorly educated white males in the world today".

Maybe I was suggesting that pollsters were wrong!?!

Maybe pollsters, the press, all the political scientists out there keep telling the world that the only dissatisfied people are those I mentioned, but in fact many more people are dissatisfied and being ignored?

Exactly! I agree! The media can't even begin to think the problem is anything other than people being stupid!!

 

[Hobbit]

A wind of change indeed. I fear that the problem will be when the feelings of resentment and anger, that have been brought about by entitlement and jealousy, are not satisfied and ameliorated by the new order and by control of immigration. When the resentments and anger remains.

Or perhaps when those that have voted realise its the politicians that have lied to them again.

Every election seems to come with promises, and every party/politician seems to renege on those promises fairly quickly.

Life is tough for many people now, and years of promises haven't seen one jot of improvement. Politicians are getting the backlash. If they deliver on their promises they might just re-engage with the electorate.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Or perhaps when those that have voted realise its the politicians that have lied to them again.

Every election seems to come with promises, and every party/politician seems to renege on those promises fairly quickly.

Life is tough for many people now, and years of promises haven't seen one jot of improvement. Politicians are getting the backlash. If they deliver on their promises they might just re-engage with the electorate.

I wonder if it is possible to be electable if only deliverable promises are made?
Do the politicians have to over egg the manifestos and over promise in debates and interviews, in order to attract the vote, even though they know they cannot deliver half of what they say.
After all they can just blame the previous leader/party or some other external factors for their failings.

 

[Liverbirdie]

Oh the world is changing. Whatever the reasons, and many are perfectly valid, it's the politics of populism, nationalism and blame and very few actual policies or real solutions....... It's all got echos of 1920/30's Europe. Great stuff, that went well.

Yep, with you there.

Maybe only the thin end of the (blonde) wedge, but can see the similarities.

 

[Sweep]

I wonder if it is possible to be electable if only deliverable promises are made?
Do the politicians have to over egg the manifestos and over promise in debates and interviews, in order to attract the vote, even though they know they cannot deliver half of what they say.
After all they can just blame the previous leader/party or some other external factors for their failings.

I agree. You vote for a candidate / party based on their manifesto. It should be a point of law that obligates the government to implement their manifesto.

 

[SocketRocket]

People will have views on the type of country they would like to live in. Their views will be different as we are individuals that have been shaped by the lives we live, our experiences and by the way we are wired up. If those in power, or want the power;are to change the way people live and introduce changes that effect the country they live in then they need to engage with them with respect and honesty. This has not been the way of the Political Elite for some time, these people want to socially engineer change and their reason is because they believe we don't know whats best for ourselves. Calling us thickos and uneducated when we turn against their ideals is the normal response along with a large dollup of 'everything will go down the tubes now'.

Thinking that people must be controlled is what will trigger them to move to the Right in politics and stick two fingers up to the elite.

 

[Sweep]

I have to say I don't really get this link between Trump and Brexit. I accept that there are similarities with worries over immigration but both issues are far more complex than that. I voted to leave the EU but I would never have voted for Trump.
I think that Farage is linking himself to Trump and vice-versa to illustrate some kind of anti-establishment movement. It has proved to be a potent initiative. Clearly there is a groundswell of ordinary people fed up with the way things are done. At every election at least one side promises "change". Obama used it as a one word campaign slogan. But as we know, things don't change. People, especially Americans who are typically very driven are never content with their lot. Everyone wants a better life. No-one can be blamed for that. I understand Regan was one of the most popular Presidents of all time and he always told his people that America's best days are ahead. As much as anything else, this is a vote for the American dream.

 

[Foxholer]

...If those in power, or want the power, are to change the way people live and introduce changes that affect the country they live in, then they need to engage with them with respect and honesty. This has not been the way of the Political Elite for some time, these people want to socially engineer change and their reason is because they believe we don't know whats best for ourselves. Calling us thickos and uneducated when we turn against their ideals is the normal response along with a large dollup of 'everything will go down the tubes now'....

You only need to look at the origins of the term 'Plebs' to realise that it HAS been the way of the 'political elite' for a VERY long time!

 

[vkurup]

I called this correctly weeks ago.. Got Brexit wrong, but learnt the lesson..

Not feeling smug about it, but we need to realise we now live in post-truth era wherein rhetoric trumps rationale and the established rules don’t apply. The wave of anti-establishment voters who feel they are disenfranchised and haven’t gained (or lost out) due to globalisation is a moving force. First UK, now US and potentially France & Germany next year. The follow up question is what happens in 4-6 years when these voters don’t get what they promised? What happens when even a hard Brexit is not able to change some of the underlying issues?

Equally, as the West turns more insular and inward looking, will it see the rise of the East. Russia will become more bold militarily, China and India look to establish economic powerhouse. The possibilities and speculations will be endless. At the end of the day, the world will go on, the sun will rise etc – but the world will have changed forever.

Welcome to the new normal, wherein nothing is normal anymore..

 

[Tashyboy]

Well ave just got back from a pals funeral and had a good read through this lot and it appears this may well be the start of a wind of change. For better or worse only time will tell. Wonder how long it is Before Mr Farage is on the telly saying " I told you so re Trump". Seeing as he endorsed him at a rally.

Heard a stat on the telly this morning which I was gobsmacked with and not yet had chance to google. If Clinton had got in and stayed in as President til 2020 then for 24 of the last 32 years a Clinton or Bush would would have been in the White House. Some were suggesting that not a lot has not been achieved under those two names in that length of time, which is one of the reasons why Hilary never got in.

Another thing which am not up to speed with which seemed an important point with re USA. Again I stand corrected. The Trump government now have complete control/Majority in all aspects of politics. So any laws passed will be put through without opposition.

 

[SocketRocket]

I called this correctly weeks ago.. Got Brexit wrong, but learnt the lesson..

Not feeling smug about it, but we need to realise we now live in post-truth era wherein rhetoric trumps rationale and the established rules don’t apply. The wave of anti-establishment voters who feel they are disenfranchised and haven’t gained (or lost out) due to globalisation is a moving force. First UK, now US and potentially France & Germany next year. The follow up question is what happens in 4-6 years If these voters don’t get what they promised? What happens if even a hard Brexit is not able to change some of the underlying issues?

Equally, if the West turns more insular and inward looking, would it see the rise of the East. Russia may become more bold militarily, China and India look to establish economic powerhouse. The possibilities and speculations could be endless. At the end of the day, the world will go on, the sun will rise etc – but the world may have changed forever.

Welcome to the new normal, wherein nothing may be normal anymore..

Maybe the changes I have edited in your post would improve it's credibility.

 

[User62651]

In recent times people have had the conviction to try and stand against establishment more I think, tipping point seemed to be the obscene banking debacle and following recession/austerity in 2008 creating real bad feeling of the poor suffering for the greed of the rich - the 'we're all in it together' mantra spouted from Cameron/Osbourne being a good example of establishment hypocrisy. This was compounded by the Scottish independence ref where the people for change didn't win but put a real shot across the Westminster establishment bows, made them panic and people took enjoyment from that. Brexit followed that as a big snub to Cameron and co as well as to the EU itself. America has now followed suit, Brexit definitely inspired the electorate there to vote and Trump used it well. Next - France, Holland, Germany and others will probably look to change too. People now feel their votes can change things and don't care what the 'experts' tell them, many have it so bad they simply dont care as for them things cant get any worse.

Redistribution of wealth is key in the world, the divide between have and have nots is wider than ever before in the west. UK governments talk of big business paying fair corporation tax etc - never happens though, perception is it's all talk and dodge after loophole lets them off. Tax havens in Channel Islands, Isle of Man, Caymans etc is all morally wrong too. Camerons Panama cover up another example. Message is the more money you have the more tax you can avoid paying. Brexit happended because people saw the EU as a corrupt behemoth of a system full of unelected fat cats milking all they can from it, they see UK govt as full of privileged toffs - MPs expenses scandal exposing them for what they are, Americans see Hillary as a lawyer with a shady past milking the Washington system for years on the back of her husbands fame to make a personal fortune. All those millionaire celebs like Jayz and Springsteen siding with Clinton in this election wouldn't have helped her get votes imo, probably the opposite.

Nowadays masses get a chance to kick the 'unfair' sytem they take it, even without really thinking through consequences.

I don't think people respect those in high office anymore be that politicians, police, military, lawyers whomever. They don't trust them anymore. It does weaken society's structure unfortunately.

Where it all ends up god knows, is it a good or bad thing? - dont know but there has been a wind of change for a while now for sure.

 

[drdel]

A hairs breadth from anarchy as the boundaries of respect for politicians, police etc. spill over when the things people thought their vote entitled them to proved ill conceived and the promises made are unreal.