Plane

[Voyager EMH]

The wheels may not be driven, but if their speed is always identical to the conveyor belt's speed and there is perfect traction then the plane can't go forward. That's how cogged gears operate.

The speeds can be matched and the plane stationary with only a tiny amount of power from the engines.
Doesn't really matter how fast that speed is - the tiny amount of power from the engines will keep the plane steady and stationary.

But can the plane move forwards from this stationary position? It only needs a tiny bit more power to do so and the engines are not short of power.

Can the conveyor speed up at the same time or does it take a very very small amount of time for it to detect the increase in speed of rotation of the plane's wheels and then engage its own motors to do this?

This is where "sticking to the wording" rather than dealing with reality is Pope vs Galileo.

Conveyor and plane stationary - plane engages engines - wheels turn - conveyor reacts - wheels have already begun to turn - conveyor can not prevent take off.
Conveyor and plane stationary - plane engages engines - wheels turn - conveyor has detected movement before it happened and then been able to engage its motors at exactly the same time as wheels turn.

Well, the second one is what the wording of the puzzle says, so that is what we must say is true. Pope.
First one describes reality. Galileo.

 

[RichA]

Well it's about the laws of motion and what you think is happening overrides those.

Forget the plane but keep the conveyor belt.
Two surveyors are standing on the belt with their measuring wheels.
They start walking at the same speed. The conveyor belt matches the speed of Surveyor 1's measuring wheel perfectly.
Surveyor 2 starts walking faster than Surveyor 1. After an hour he is 2 miles ahead of Surveyor 1.
Surveyor 1's wheel has traveled X miles.
Surveyor 2's wheel has traveled X+2 miles.
Surveyor 2 has to have been walking 2 mph faster than Surveyor 1.
So the conveyor belt was not matching the speed of Surveyor 2's wheel, it was 2mph slower.

 

[Deleted member 35927]

Forget the plane but keep the conveyor belt.
Two surveyors are standing on the belt with their measuring wheels.
They start walking at the same speed. The conveyor belt matches the speed of Surveyor 1's measuring wheel perfectly.
Surveyor 2 starts walking faster. After an hour he is 2 miles ahead of Surveyor 1.
Surveyor 1's wheel has traveled X miles.
Surveyor 2's wheel has traveled X+2 miles.
Surveyor 2 has to have been walking 2 mph faster than Surveyor 1.
So the conveyor belt was not matching the speed of Surveyor 2's wheel, it was 2mph slower.

Why would i forget the plane ? It's what the whole question is about. See the medical hologram for more detail on reality Vs make believe.

 

[RichA]

The speeds can be matched and the plane stationary with only a tiny amount of power from the engines.
Doesn't really matter how fast that speed is - the tiny amount of power from the engines will keep the plane steady and stationary.

But can the plane move forwards from this stationary position? It only needs a tiny bit more power to do so and the engines are not short of power.

Can the conveyor speed up at the same time or does it take a very very small amount of time for it to detect the increase in speed of the plane's wheels and then engage its own motors to do this?

This is where "sticking to the wording" rather than dealing with reality is Pope vs Galileo.

Conveyor and plane stationary - plane engages engines - wheels turn - conveyor reacts - wheels have already begun to turn - conveyor can not prevent take off.
Conveyor and plane stationary - plane engages engines - wheels turn - conveyor has detected movement before it happened and then been able to engage its motors at exactly the same time as wheels turn.

Well, the second one is what the wording of the puzzle says, so that is what we must say is true. Pope.
First one describes reality. Galileo.

I'm not saying the 250k bhp plane is stationary. I'm saying that if the wheels and conveyor are speed matched then there has to be skidding and friction. The plane weighs hundreds of tons. The friction will be massive.

 

[RichA]

Why would i forget the plane ? It's what the whole question is about. See the medical hologram for more detail on reality Vs make believe.

You and VEMH were the first ones to replace the plane with a roller skate, I think. I'm just using another freewheeling device that actually measures distance.

 

[Deleted member 35927]

You and VEMH were the first ones to replace the plane with a roller skate, I think. I'm just using another freewheeling device that actually measures distance.

The measuring wheels aren't freewheeling , they are under the control of the surveyor, and will match their walking speed, unless they are hovering above wearing jetpacks?

 

[RichA]

The measuring wheels aren't freewheeling , they are under the control of the surveyor, and will match their walking speed, unless they are hovering above wearing jetpacks?

Jetpack, walking, pushed by a disembodied hand, whatever. They are freewheeling in exactly the same way that the plane wheels do.

 

[Swango1980]

What if the pilot has the engine power output just enough to match the rotation of the conveyor? You’re assuming he’s on full blast and wanting to take off.

Yes. If the pilot is not actually trying to take off, the plane will not take off. I fully accept that explanation.

 

[Swango1980]

The conveyor belt is programmed to match the speed of the plane's wheels.
If you have it that the wheel is prevented from rotating then the conveyor isn't moving either.

Untrue

If the belt is moving at the same speed as the plane in the same direction, clearly the wheel will not move. The only thing preventing the free-wheeling wheel from moving is...the belt. Therefore, it is conteracting rotation

 

[Deleted member 35927]

Jetpack, walking, pushed by a disembodied hand, whatever. They are freewheeling in exactly the same way that the plane wheels do.

So your point is if one person walks further than another then his roller ruler has gone further too ? Yes sounds fair. The speed of the roller is the same as chap pushing it. You are literally proving the point that the belt cant stop the plane.

 

[RichA]

So your point is if one person walks further than another then his roller ruler has gone further too ? Yes sounds fair. The speed of the roller is the same as chap pushing it

Two chaps. If one has gone further in the same period of time then their speeds were different. The chap two miles on front was faster than the conveyor belt.

 

[RichA]

Untrue

If the belt is moving at the same speed as the plane in the same direction, clearly the wheel will not move. The only thing preventing the free-wheeling wheel from moving is...the belt. Therefore, it is conteracting rotation

The belt is programmed to match the speed of the plane's wheels.
If wheel speed is zero then belt speed is programmed also be zero.

 

[Swango1980]

Forget the plane but keep the conveyor belt.
Two surveyors are standing on the belt with their measuring wheels.
They start walking at the same speed. The conveyor belt matches the speed of Surveyor 1's measuring wheel perfectly.
Surveyor 2 starts walking faster than Surveyor 1. After an hour he is 2 miles ahead of Surveyor 1.
Surveyor 1's wheel has traveled X miles.
Surveyor 2's wheel has traveled X+2 miles.
Surveyor 2 has to have been walking 2 mph faster than Surveyor 1.
So the conveyor belt was not matching the speed of Surveyor 2's wheel, it was 2mph slower.

Just to confirm, what is this scenario telling us?

That if one person walks faster than another person, he will be further ahead after a time has elapsed? Forget the plane, why even have a belt? You could say that if both were walking on static land.

 

[Swango1980]

You and VEMH were the first ones to replace the plane with a roller skate, I think. I'm just using another freewheeling device that actually measures distance.

The free feeling device is being powered by a device (human) that is exerting power through the treadmill.

If a plane was pushed by a truck to get its speed, then your scenario would be more relevant, as the truck would also be on the belt.

 

[RichA]

The free feeling device is being powered by a device (human) that is exerting power through the treadmill.

If a plane was pushed by a truck to get its speed, then your scenario would be more relevant, as the truck would also be on the belt.

Ok. If it makes it easier, have the distance measuring device attached to the plane's undercarriage.
If there's perfect traction then the plane has travelled further than the conveyor belt. Therefore the speed wasn't matched.
I accept that the plane moves forwards but it's overcoming the friction of tyres on a speed matched conveyor belt. Friction of a 300 ton plane at very high speed equals lots of heat, unsustainable wear on the tyres and mechanical failure.

You've introduced driven wheels here, not me. The surveyor's measuring wheel is freewheeling, pushed by an outside force, just like the plane wheels.

 

[Voyager EMH]

You and VEMH were the first ones to replace the plane with a roller skate, I think. I'm just using another freewheeling device that actually measures distance.

I believe I did not replace the plane with a rollerskate.

I recall that I replaced a sprinter with someone on rollerskates powered by a jetpack.

 

[Deleted member 35927]

You and VEMH were the first ones to replace the plane with a roller skate, I think. I'm just using another freewheeling device that actually measures distance.

I used a skateboard .
Let's take the roller skates, if I am stood on the belt and begin to skate, the belt can easily match and I stay stationary.
However if anyone other than VEMH comes along they can easily stand aside the belt and push me along. There is nothing the belt can do to stop this.
So while you can write a sentence saying I can't move , the reality, the one we live it says otherwise.
That my friend is science fact.

 

[Swango1980]

I'm going to have to say that this scenario has swayed well off track, I struggle to see the comparison. Surveyors with measuring wheels, thrusting those measuring wheels forwards by exerting a force directly onto belt. Compared to a plane on a conveyor belt, being thrust forwards by a force exerted in the air.

As for friction. Sure, it won't be zero, but it will be negligible. Especially if you are comfortable with the wheels being considered "free-wheeling"

 

[RichA]

I used a skateboard .
Let's take the roller skates, if I am stood on the belt and begin to skate, the belt can easily match and I stay stationary.
However if anyone other than VEMH comes along they can easily stand aside the belt and push me along. There is nothing the belt can do to stop this.
So while you can write a sentence saying I can't move , the reality, the one we live it says otherwise.
That my friend is science fact.

I'm not saying that you can't move in that scenario. I'm saying that as soon as somebody does push you forwards the wheels on your roller skates are rotating faster than the belt, which the fictional scenario does not allow.
That, my friend, is pretty simple maths.

 

[Deleted member 35927]

I'm not saying that you can't move in that scenario. I'm saying that as soon as somebody does push you forwards the wheels on your roller skates are rotating faster than the belt, which the fictional scenario does not allow.
That, my friend, is pretty simple maths.

Everything you are saying is fiction.