Penalty for Lowry

rulie said:
I think it was at Torrey Pines, and in a playoff. He was very unhappy about it because his provisional ball was in the middle of the fairway. Because the original ball was found, he had to abandon the provisional. He deemed the original unplayable and chose to return to the tee playing under stroke and distance.
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Swings and roundabouts though isn't it? Tour pros enjoy the luxuries of never losing a ball all year round thanks to the galleries. My heart doesn't bleed if it fails to benefit them once in a blue moon.
 
Orikoru said:
Swings and roundabouts though isn't it? Tour pros enjoy the luxuries of never losing a ball all year round thanks to the galleries. My heart doesn't bleed if it fails to benefit them once in a blue moon.
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... and courses groomed to a degree the rest of us can only dream about
... and apparent total freedom from completing a stroke in 40 seconds
 
salfordlad said:
... and courses groomed to a degree the rest of us can only dream about
... and apparent total freedom from completing a stroke in 40 seconds
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But, as you know, the 40 seconds recommendation is only important if their group is out of position. And the professionals are very good at ensuring that they stay "in position" throughout the round.
I was refereeing at The Open in 2007 at Carnoustie and was with the group of Mike Weir and Scott Verplank. We were late getting to the 14th tee and Andy McPhee radioed to tell my group that we were out of position. Each player is to be told individually as they leave the tee. I talked to Verplank first, and his comment was "Tell your countryman", which I did.
 
rulie said:
But, as you know, the 40 seconds recommendation is only important if their group is out of position. And the professionals are very good at ensuring that they stay "in position" throughout the round.
I was refereeing at The Open in 2007 at Carnoustie and was with the group of Mike Weir and Scott Verplank. We were late getting to the 14th tee and Andy McPhee radioed to tell my group that we were out of position. Each player is to be told individually as they leave the tee. I talked to Verplank first, and his comment was "Tell your countryman", which I did.
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The rule is simply not applied, almost all the time, even in tour events that, unlike Rule 5.7, include reference to "out of position" in pace of play policies. These folk, playing in twos or threes, take 5.5 hours or more to complete a round.
 
salfordlad said:
The rule is simply not applied, almost all the time, even in tour events that, unlike Rule 5.7, include reference to "out of position" in pace of play policies. These folk, playing in twos or threes, take 5.5 hours or more to complete a round.
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First offence, warning.
Second offence, 3 points on your tour license
12 points, ban from the next tournament
 
Slow play isn’t always limited to a specific time set that someone must go around a golf course

There are numerous factors for each round

If you spend the whole round being up with the group in front but take over 5 hours - what are the group supposed to do

Sometimes a round may take longer than expected with things like - comps type , course set up , group size

Capts day at ours takes around 5 hours ( normally it’s 4 ) because you have captain going around giving drinks , it’s 4 balls , half way hut stop for food and drink and raffle , beat the pro on a hole , a fun green keeper revenge hole - it all adds up

Providing play is moving then there shooldnt be an issue

The Open suffered because of the make up of the course - greens near tees , players waiting to putt whilst someone tees off etc
 
salfordlad said:
So your #225 was simply your suggestion? I thought you were saying it is in place.
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Nooooo, just a suggestion.
I know they have penalty points in F1 and I think referees would be more inclined to give a player 3 points rather than a one or two shot penalty, especially a famous player in contention
 
I appreciate rounds are very long. Too long, I'm sure.

But, there is a bit of a defence on that. Which could be:

  • They are playing courses where most of the Par 4's seem to be 450 yards plus, Par 5's getting around 600 yards. It is long, perhaps it takes an extra 15-20 minutes alone just to walk the extra distance compared to your local course
  • They are playing for lots of money, and trying to keep their playing privileges on tour. They are not going to start flying around, and hitting shots to greens with the vague hope of getting it somewhere on the green. They are well drilled on exactly how far they can hit their shots, so they are going to spend a lot of time working out exactly the yardages, and what type of shot to play. Even the slightest change in wind, they'll know that could drastically change the outcome of what they expect. Whereas most of the time, we'll smash it anyway, and just be happy that we don't fat or thin it, or slice it off the planet. And they'll spend a lot of time reading the greens, whereas most of us will just hope to generally get the line right, and get it somewhere close. They make a lot more putts than us (often on very tricky greens), and if they spent as much effort on the greens as we did, even if that cost them a shot or 2 a round, that is 4-8 shots worse on their final score.
  • I'd imagine they have to delay their play at times based on what it happening around them. I'll happily hit my shot whilst a group on an adjacent fairway or playing their shots. But if I was a pro, you may need to be aware that if you do this, there could be a roar or clapping from the hundreds of spectators nearby watching another group.
Sure, there are some very slow players when you see the waggles and so on. But most of the extra time they spend compared to us is likely just because there is a lot more on the line for them, and there are a lot of distractions around them. If I was playing for £100 a round, I reckon that might add 10-15 minutes at least on to my normal round time :)
 
Swango1980 said:
I appreciate rounds are very long. Too long, I'm sure.

But, there is a bit of a defence on that. Which could be:

  • They are playing courses where most of the Par 4's seem to be 450 yards plus, Par 5's getting around 600 yards. It is long, perhaps it takes an extra 15-20 minutes alone just to walk the extra distance compared to your local course
  • They are playing for lots of money, and trying to keep their playing privileges on tour. They are not going to start flying around, and hitting shots to greens with the vague hope of getting it somewhere on the green. They are well drilled on exactly how far they can hit their shots, so they are going to spend a lot of time working out exactly the yardages, and what type of shot to play. Even the slightest change in wind, they'll know that could drastically change the outcome of what they expect. Whereas most of the time, we'll smash it anyway, and just be happy that we don't fat or thin it, or slice it off the planet. And they'll spend a lot of time reading the greens, whereas most of us will just hope to generally get the line right, and get it somewhere close. They make a lot more putts than us (often on very tricky greens), and if they spent as much effort on the greens as we did, even if that cost them a shot or 2 a round, that is 4-8 shots worse on their final score.
  • I'd imagine they have to delay their play at times based on what it happening around them. I'll happily hit my shot whilst a group on an adjacent fairway or playing their shots. But if I was a pro, you may need to be aware that if you do this, there could be a roar or clapping from the hundreds of spectators nearby watching another group.
Sure, there are some very slow players when you see the waggles and so on. But most of the extra time they spend compared to us is likely just because there is a lot more on the line for them, and there are a lot of distractions around them. If I was playing for £100 a round, I reckon that might add 10-15 minutes at least on to my normal round time :)
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There's only one word missing there.
Deterrent
I know some rounds take longer than others and why, I just think it's down to the players.
If they think they can take 6 hours per round and get away with it, they will
 
KenL said:
Was it not about 4 hours in the last 2 rounds in the Open Championship?
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I have no idea about that but I understood some groups got disturbingly close to 6 hours earlier in the event. Imagine that, about 10 strokes an hour, including on and around the greens.
 
Neilds said:
I know some will say “rules are rules” but this sort of thing (to me) is why a lot of non golfers think that golf is a bit stuck up with too many stupid rules. To the outsider, the ball didn’t move, there was no advantage so why a penalty. No wonder people are put off golf and those of us who play don’t know all(enough?) of the rules.
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I see what you are saying, and sympathise, but it comes down to catering for “disguised intent”.
Supposing someone ,minded to cheat, was in that position and decided that a well played practice swing or two ‘might “accidentally “ move the ball just enough for me to get a good shot on it.’
Unfortunately, these possibilities have to be legislated for, I suppose.

And I agree there are some stupid rules!
 
Swinglowandslow said:
I see what you are saying, and sympathise, but it comes down to catering for “disguised intent”.
Supposing someone ,minded to cheat, was in that position and decided that a well played practice swing or two ‘might “accidentally “ move the ball just enough for me to get a good shot on it.’
Unfortunately, these possibilities have to be legislated for, I suppose.

And I agree there are some stupid rules!
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I understand some folk wondering why ...
But the finest traditions of this game, IMO, are the underlying key rules that have been there from day 1: play the ball as it lies and play the course as you find it. Lowry came up short.
 
salfordlad said:
I understand some folk wondering why ...
But the finest traditions of this game, IMO, are the underlying key rules that have been there from day 1: play the ball as it lies and play the course as you find it. Lowry came up short.
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When I mentioned in another thread removing all immoveable objects, temp obstructions, etc., and just playing the ball as it lies or taking a penalty drop I got utterly roasted :p
 
salfordlad said:
I understand some folk wondering why ...
But the finest traditions of this game, IMO, are the underlying key rules that have been there from day 1: play the ball as it lies and play the course as you find it. Lowry came up short.
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Yes, the Bobby Jones code, but really…
1. .having to play out of a divot ? Can’t move it 2 inches out?
2. Must drop in a bunker and not place?

Neither of those scenarios are because you, the player, didn’t do the right thing, or did a wrong thing.
Some rules are bloody minded.
 
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