Pace Of Play - what can be done to improve it

[MikeH]

Evening all

we are compiling a major pace of play piece and are keen to hear about any initiatives the club/course you play at has to improve pace of play

this one is pretty cool... a free pint if you get round in good time!
http://www.gmsgolf.co.uk/wycombe-heights-golf-centre-takes-firm-stance-on-pace-of-play/

also keen to hear about the things you feel can make a real difference when it comes to speeding up play

over to you!

 

[pokerjoke]

Hi Mike just a question,is this not going over old ground?

I have noticed the magazine has covered this on numerous occasions and I do remember yourself in the editors notes covering slow play.

We have also covered it on numerous occasions on this forum and the answers will always be the same.

Imo until some actions are taken and shots added to scores and someone actually stands up to the big players and not 14 year old kids it could be a problem that will not go away soon.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Evening Mike, Courses need to be realistic about how long a round should take, ie, midweek 4 Ball playing for fun against a 4 Ball in a Club Comp at weekends, one size doesn't fit all.
Also they should time the difference between abilities and handicaps.
Finally, all members should have the equivalent "driving" license like they do on the Continent, it covers rules etiquette ability etc.

 

[Imurg]

The problem with having a specific time limit like W.Heights free pint initiative is that there are many reasons that a round can take more than the allotted time without actually playing slowly.
A certain pace of play is desirable but, for instance, taking 5 minutes to search for a ball on every hole adds 90 minutes to the round.! OK that's extreme but even every other hole equates to 45 minutes. That in itself is not playing slowly and if held up groups are let through asap the delays are reduced to a minimum.
Education is, for me, the key.
On the Continent they have, or at least used to have, a policy of making players take an etiquette and basic rules test before they were allowed to play.
They have to show understanding of when to let people through, how to behave etc etc.
If that was done here it would put paid to a lot of slow play.
The downsides are that..
1. You don't catch casual golfers who do not join clubs
2. Its gonna cost and nobody will want to pay.

Slow play, as far as I'm concerned, is more to do with taking too long over pre shot routines, not being ready to play, leaving your bag in the wrong place and trying to emulate the Pros, rather than a specific amount of time taken.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Education is IMO the biggest thing - letting players know the best way to move around a course - putting trolleys at exits , marking card on next tee , ensureing when its your turn you are ready to play for examples

Playing ready golf more often ie dont worry about honour etc

 

[stevelev]

I think at Club Level members and visitors need to be educated that Single Players still count as a group, and that even when playing in a competition if your holding a whole course up the right thing to do is let people start to play through.

It isn't always women but at Eccleston Park Golf Club, the ladies comp today would not let a single player play through (our 3 groups let him through on the 7th / 8th holes) and he spent the rest of the round with a group of women on every tee, they still wouldn't let him play through as he wasn't in the comp. I say today it is the same every Tuesday and Thursday they really are Sloooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwww. :yawn

Small Fixes:

1. Look at how courses are Marshalled, a lot of clubs have Marshalls carrying out menial maintenance tasks which do not actually benefit the pace of play. Maybe if clubs allocated Marshalls to areas of the course where balls are commonly fired during comps so they can spot and help players find their ball easier thus reducing time spent searching.
   
2. Remind player to read a notice board that indicates desired round times and etiquette, so when the Marshalls do approach them for causing undue delay they can be reminded of the notice board. If they offend a couple of times per round Marshalls should have the right to hold the group until other groups have played through, a lot of Marshalls will only ask can the offending group show willing and let the chasing group through.
   
3. Penalise ALL pro's on Professional tours for breaches causing delays or taking in excess of the allocated time per shot. Give them one warning per season, then for each offence add a penalty based on how many offences (2 shots for 2 offences, 3 for 3rd, 4 for 4th, 5 for 5th and so on) it will soon stop them, but like in football the governing bodies are too gutless to impose the penalties. At club level move slow player to the last group(s) of the day they'll soon speed up so the can get home before it goes dark.
   
4. Reduce groups to maximum 3 balls with 10 minute intervals (more and more clubs care about loss of visitor income than looking after members. This would leave a small gap so when a ball goes into the rough, a couple minutes of searching will not affect the group behind. We play 8 minute intervals and that 2 mins difference is massive when looking in an area you know your ball to be..

Like other though the biggest influence on reducing slow play is to look at the role models (pro golfers) who go unpunished. We all try to emulate them and without even realising this also includes taking longer to play rounds. Come on PGA and USPGA get a grip and promote prompt play, and strict time keeping.

 

[GB72]

Pair up more people and get groups of even size on the course. Medals and other comps at my place rarely seem slow to members as everyone is in a similar sized group and thus roughly playing at a similar pace.

Reduce the time to look for lost balls or if more than one ball is lost in a group give the whole group 5 minutes to find all the missing balls.

Keep the rough to a level where it penalises the next shot but does not mean a lost ball.

Actually grow a pair and have clubs penalise those who hold up the course. We all know who they are so put them at the back of the field until they get the hint.

Ensure that competition groups have a mix of abilities yo even out the pace of the course.

Or be really extreme. Ban playing through totally. Stop the 1 and 2 balls trying to play through a packed course of 4 balls and slowing the pace of play gor everyone. Encourage people to enjoy their time in the fresh air

 

[backwoodsman]

As slow play is basically down to attitude, I really don't know how to speed things up. One knows plenty of simple things that would do it, but how do you change people's mindset to get them to do them?

How often do you see all three (or 4) people in a group, or line, level with one ball who wait while it's played, then all move to the next ball. How do you break this habit & get people to walk to their own ball.

Linked to above, if you have a PSR, do it whilst otthers are playing their shot

Let. Faster. Groups. Through. (That's my way of gritting ones teeth in writing) Why will people not do it and how do you persuade them to do so.

I could go on but... One has tried to persuade people to change but do they? Heckerslike.

 

[Smiffy]

Two or three things annoy me on a golf course and contribute to slow play.

A) Players not being ready to putt when it's their turn. They mark the ball and then wait until the other player has putted before getting their line etc. They could be lining up and getting an "idea" whilst the other guy is putting, as long as they are not disturbing him.

B) Players not being ready to tee off when it is their turn. They step up onto the tee and then stand there whilst their playing partner tees off before deciding to go back to their bag and get their club out. I always have my club ready in hand to step onto the tee as soon as the other guy has played. I can understand it on a par 3 where there might be a little doubt on which club to hit, but on a par 4 or 5 where they know they are going to hit a driver, why the hell haven't they got their club ready?

C) Players continuing to play a hole when they have not a hope in hell of making a score. Again, I can understand it in a medal when they don't want to N/R but in a Stableford??? It annoys the hell out of me when I see score cards with anything above an 8 marked on them. Just put a "dash" through it and go and tend the flag for Gods sake.
There are other things but how long have we got?

 

[Imurg]

Further to the Education angle, its pointless just educating new players. That might solve the problem in about 50 years.
All players, old and new, need educating.
Everyone who plays should have some kind of training before they play.
Who goes to play Rugby, Cricket or Footy without knowing the rules or etiquette of the game, even if some games don't have much..!
Education for all, but it won't ever happen because nobody will pay for it.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The best thing about golf is that it is welcome to all people of all ability and age to play the idea of "rules and etiquette" training just would add to the stuffy image of the game

There are thousands who start the game up and are more the capable of understanding the basic etiquette and rules and pick up the rest as they go - if you say to something "you can't play on the course until you learn this etiquette package" then the majority would just say stuff it and walk away.

And mainly in my experience the slow play and poor etiquette isn't from the new players to the game - it's the guys that have been playing the game a decent amount of time

 

[Canary_Yellow]

Evening all

we are compiling a major pace of play piece and are keen to hear about any initiatives the club/course you play at has to improve pace of play

this one is pretty cool... a free pint if you get round in good time!
http://www.gmsgolf.co.uk/wycombe-heights-golf-centre-takes-firm-stance-on-pace-of-play/

also keen to hear about the things you feel can make a real difference when it comes to speeding up play

over to you!

We played Wycombe heights a few weeks ago on a Saturday at lunch time. Thought it was going to be hellishly slow, particularly given the incentives offered for not being slow.

As it turned out, the pace of play was very good.

I'm not sure if those incentives made much difference but there were quite a few very friendly marshalls on the course that did an excellent job of keeping things moving.

 

[john0]

Restrict the old timers to only playing as 2 balls

 

[Smiffy]

Restrict the old timers to only playing as 2 balls

Oh JohnO

 

[chrisd]

How about shooting the last player walking up random fairways, I think that would speed things up a little!

 

[Slab]

It always seems to be one of the biggest talking points online and in mags but that R&A survey didn’t find it was a deal breaker for players they surveyed and the trouble is lots of us think we know how to ‘cure’ slow play but the reality is most of it would have a superficial impact at best

Most of the ‘cures’ can be picked apart and argued from both sides, we’ve already had one in ‘let a single through/don’t let a single through’ and that’s just in the first few posts

Just to take a couple more examples. Education, how many golfers actually don’t know how to speed up their play if they had to? Yet poor education is cited all the time as a major cause. Just how many uneducated golfers are taking part in your clubs monthly medals that already last 4 ½ + hours! It’s far more likely it’s a lack of motivation or desire to speed up

Bags/trolleys on wrong side, it’s a tiny number of times I’ve ever seen this happen. Leaving a bag at point of entry to the green is not the wrong side in terms of overall pace of a round. To be the wrong side of a green to impact pace it would need to be equidistant from both point of entry and point of exit, who does this! There is absolutely a placebo effect for the following group to see bags left at point of exit instead of point of entry but it has zero impact on the elapsed time

Pro’s on TV set bad example, nah not buying it. Maybe if we were all impressionable pre pubescent teens would some TV footage of a pro change you to emulate them regarding pace but (sadly) the courses aren’t full of kids, its mature adults we’re talking about here. Really when was the last time a TV show inspired a meaningful change in your behaviour?

We have some pretty random times allocated for how long a round should take and some folks seem to have adopted these as gospel and any variance is deemed slow when the reality is that dozens of things will slow the pace for the day from rain to pin positions, tee gaps to rough length, group sizes to game format etc and when they do kick in and inevitably slow things down its the player who marked his card beside the green that will be blamed for adding 40 minutes to your game & roundly beaten with a wedge

It’s like the driving distance claims, ‘we once went round in idyllic conditions as a 4-ball in 3:20 so anything over say 3:30 is slow’
Jeez, even changing 2 or 3 pin positions could create a new chokepoint on the course that didn’t exist the day before and add 10 minutes to a round

To answer the OP, until clubs carry out a proper assessment of the pace dictated by your course considering its chokepoints, season, rough, tee gaps, weather, groups, number of players etc etc & that pace is communicated to players, we’re all going in half blind and left to make up our own mind about what’s slow and if we actually see something that doesn’t fit with our own ‘pace model’ then it/him/her are gonna cop it and be blamed not only for the slow pace in totality but also for any poor shot we make thereafter because it/they ‘broke our rhythm’ (which ironically will slow the pace even more)

I think there are lots of good ideas and initiatives out there that individual clubs adopt and implement but it lacks a cohesive, coordinated approach from the governing bodies to drive a meaningful change across the game

 

[duncan mackie]

It always seems to be one of the biggest talking points online and in mags but that R&A survey didn’t find it was a deal breaker for players they surveyed and the trouble is lots of us think we know how to ‘cure’ slow play but the reality is most of it would have a superficial impact at best

Most of the ‘cures’ can be picked apart and argued from both sides, we’ve already had one in ‘let a single through/don’t let a single through’ and that’s just in the first few posts

Just to take a couple more examples. Education, how many golfers actually don’t know how to speed up their play if they had to? Yet poor education is cited all the time as a major cause. Just how many uneducated golfers are taking part in your clubs monthly medals that already last 4 ½ + hours! It’s far more likely it’s a lack of motivation or desire to speed up

Bags/trolleys on wrong side, it’s a tiny number of times I’ve ever seen this happen. Leaving a bag at point of entry to the green is not the wrong side in terms of overall pace of a round. To be the wrong side of a green to impact pace it would need to be equidistant from both point of entry and point of exit, who does this! There is absolutely a placebo effect for the following group to see bags left at point of exit instead of point of entry but it has zero impact on the elapsed time

Pro’s on TV set bad example, nah not buying it. Maybe if we were all impressionable pre pubescent teens would some TV footage of a pro change you to emulate them regarding pace but (sadly) the courses aren’t full of kids, its mature adults we’re talking about here. Really when was the last time a TV show inspired a meaningful change in your behaviour?

We have some pretty random times allocated for how long a round should take and some folks seem to have adopted these as gospel and any variance is deemed slow when the reality is that dozens of things will slow the pace for the day from rain to pin positions, tee gaps to rough length, group sizes to game format etc and when they do kick in and inevitably slow things down its the player who marked his card beside the green that will be blamed for adding 40 minutes to your game & roundly beaten with a wedge

It’s like the driving distance claims, ‘we once went round in idyllic conditions as a 4-ball in 3:20 so anything over say 3:30 is slow’
Jeez, even changing 2 or 3 pin positions could create a new chokepoint on the course that didn’t exist the day before and add 10 minutes to a round

To answer the OP, until clubs carry out a proper assessment of the pace dictated by your course considering its chokepoints, season, rough, tee gaps, weather, groups, number of players etc etc & that pace is communicated to players, we’re all going in half blind and left to make up our own mind about what’s slow and if we actually see something that doesn’t fit with our own ‘pace model’ then it/him/her are gonna cop it and be blamed not only for the slow pace in totality but also for any poor shot we make thereafter because it/they ‘broke our rhythm’ (which ironically will slow the pace even more)

I think there are lots of good ideas and initiatives out there that individual clubs adopt and implement but it lacks a cohesive, coordinated approach from the governing bodies to drive a meaningful change across the game

This covers all the practical points...

The reality of slow play is rather simpler - if everyone respected other course users, the old do to them as you would wish to be done to, one facet of the problem would be resolved. As they simply do not; the only practical solution is an active course Marshall with clear powers that are supported by the management/membership.

The other facet is expectation. If a course has mixed groups using a single tee then expectations need to be managed from the decision to play then through booking in and teeing off. If a field of 30 × 4 balls is booked off then a 2 ball in a buggy should know that they are playing 4 ball speed because it's simply not practical to play through such a field. On the other hand 3 X 4 balls with a lot of 2 and 3 balls should be told to let the field through if they are caught up quickly.

Finally tee spacing should be such that there is a small gap between groups - if the following group tee off on the first as soon as the previous one is out of range (for them) you effectively create a slow play issue instantly - without anyone having done anything wrong! That it subsequently prevents a course breathing has also been proved to affect the time groups will take generally to get round.

 

[chellie]

It always seems to be one of the biggest talking points online and in mags but that R&A survey didn’t find it was a deal breaker for players they surveyed and the trouble is lots of us think we know how to ‘cure’ slow play but the reality is most of it would have a superficial impact at best

Most of the ‘cures’ can be picked apart and argued from both sides, we’ve already had one in ‘let a single through/don’t let a single through’ and that’s just in the first few posts

Just to take a couple more examples. Education, how many golfers actually don’t know how to speed up their play if they had to? Yet poor education is cited all the time as a major cause. Just how many uneducated golfers are taking part in your clubs monthly medals that already last 4 ½ + hours! It’s far more likely it’s a lack of motivation or desire to speed up

Bags/trolleys on wrong side, it’s a tiny number of times I’ve ever seen this happen. Leaving a bag at point of entry to the green is not the wrong side in terms of overall pace of a round. To be the wrong side of a green to impact pace it would need to be equidistant from both point of entry and point of exit, who does this! There is absolutely a placebo effect for the following group to see bags left at point of exit instead of point of entry but it has zero impact on the elapsed time

Pro’s on TV set bad example, nah not buying it. Maybe if we were all impressionable pre pubescent teens would some TV footage of a pro change you to emulate them regarding pace but (sadly) the courses aren’t full of kids, its mature adults we’re talking about here. Really when was the last time a TV show inspired a meaningful change in your behaviour?

We have some pretty random times allocated for how long a round should take and some folks seem to have adopted these as gospel and any variance is deemed slow when the reality is that dozens of things will slow the pace for the day from rain to pin positions, tee gaps to rough length, group sizes to game format etc and when they do kick in and inevitably slow things down its the player who marked his card beside the green that will be blamed for adding 40 minutes to your game & roundly beaten with a wedge

It’s like the driving distance claims, ‘we once went round in idyllic conditions as a 4-ball in 3:20 so anything over say 3:30 is slow’
Jeez, even changing 2 or 3 pin positions could create a new chokepoint on the course that didn’t exist the day before and add 10 minutes to a round

To answer the OP, until clubs carry out a proper assessment of the pace dictated by your course considering its chokepoints, season, rough, tee gaps, weather, groups, number of players etc etc & that pace is communicated to players, we’re all going in half blind and left to make up our own mind about what’s slow and if we actually see something that doesn’t fit with our own ‘pace model’ then it/him/her are gonna cop it and be blamed not only for the slow pace in totality but also for any poor shot we make thereafter because it/they ‘broke our rhythm’ (which ironically will slow the pace even more)

I think there are lots of good ideas and initiatives out there that individual clubs adopt and implement but it lacks a cohesive, coordinated approach from the governing bodies to drive a meaningful change across the game

What a brilliant post. I'm finding the constant "slow play is killing the game" on the internet, magazines etc really boring.

If someone wants to charge round a course at break neck speed then going out first thing would be my suggestion.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Good post by Slab

Some sympathy with the view that this is going over old ground. IRRC the recent R&A survey suggested that actually on average play wasn't that slow in the UK. So I wonder if it really is as big a problem as we think. Would be interesting to have a poll on here as to whether people find generally that slow play is an issue at their club (rather than one off bad experiences).

I only rarely feel play is slow. It is usually big comps on unfamiliar courses but that is to be expected. We know the various ways in which people can play faster without too much effort and of course they should be promoted but it is inevitable that players don't always follow these all the time.

Posts on here in the past have suggested that there is disagreement as to what is "slow" is (within certain limits). Some would say 4 hours is slow others wouldn't. It is largely relative - the group in front is "slow" if they are holding you up. When I play I don't like having to rush, but equally I don't like being held up. Some people are slow but reasons vary and I doubt whether many of them are likely to or even able to change how they play. Sometimes play feels slow when in fact it isn't and vice versa.

We do have to accept that people play at different speeds. I often play in group which includes a 75 year old. He is very fit but he won't be rushing round. We tee off late (usually last) in comps and often have no one behind us. Should we be trying to get round in 3 1/2 hours? Should we all have to play at the same pace as the fastest group? Equally though we shouldn't all have to play at the pace of the slowest group. Perhaps the key is simply to encourage people to let faster groups through; if we all did that we could all play at the pace that suits us.

Good idea for each club to assess it's own situation based on evidence and members experiences and wishes to find out what the issues are, rather than look for generic solutions to what may not be a problem.

 

[el marko]

I've tried putting this idea forward to teeofftimes. Why can't they display how many players have booked for the given tee time? If I knew that at 4pm i would be stuck behind 10 tee times of 4 balls I wouldn't book it. I would look for a time that has less players during the tee times.

Perhaps clubs could block out 4 ball only slots. So you never get masses of 1 and 2 balls queuing up behind.