fundy
Ryder Cup Winner
and then it will be the same clubs moaning theyre going out of business as they lose members lol
No Returns - Due to WHS Guidance
- Thread starter Swango1980
- Start date
and then it will be the same clubs moaning theyre going out of business as they lose members lol
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
ah the good old NR debate again
It’s a hobby we play for goodness sake - if someone doesn’t put their card in - so what ? In the grand scheme of things does it really matter. It never bothered me one single bit and certainly never had the intentions of bringing in restrictive rules
Take a step back at times and realise we play this sport for fun
It’s a hobby we play for goodness sake - if someone doesn’t put their card in - so what ? In the grand scheme of things does it really matter. It never bothered me one single bit and certainly never had the intentions of bringing in restrictive rules
Take a step back at times and realise we play this sport for fun
Swango1980
Well-known member
I think you are both missing the point.
In all honesty, I don't really care if a golfer walks off in a huff because they are not playing well. I certainly dont care if they pick up on one hole in a medal, but continue playing.
This is about how they will impact on WHS, because no returns could have a very different impact on a players handicap. Therefore, England Golf have asked all clubs to implement strong disciplinary measures if players no return. So, if that is the case, and you are unhappy, by all means leave the club. But, where will you go if everyone is having to do it?
You do realise that, players have responsibilities as part of the handicapping guidelines? If you are happy enough to take part in competitions that clubs organise for you, with a handicap they help maintain, it is not asking a lot for you to return your score? Or is it? Perhaps NOT playing competions is a good idea for players fragile enough that bad form makes them want to stop playing, maybe stick to social golf with mates
As I said, I don't care if a player currently walks off. I have no returned before (not proud of it though). But, don't expect it to be so easy to do come November
fundy
Ryder Cup Winner
Swango do you think youre getting a little bit too worried/obsessed about WHS more than 6 months before its here and everyone even knows exactly what shape it will take?
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
I think you are both missing the point.
In all honesty, I don't really care if a golfer walks off in a huff because they are not playing well. I certainly dont care if they pick up on one hole in a medal, but continue playing.
This is about how they will impact on WHS, because no returns could have a very different impact on a players handicap. Therefore, England Golf have asked all clubs to implement strong disciplinary measures if players no return. So, if that is the case, and you are unhappy, by all means leave the club. But, where will you go if everyone is having to do it?
You do realise that, players have responsibilities as part of the handicapping guidelines? If you are happy enough to take part in competitions that clubs organise for you, with a handicap they help maintain, it is not asking a lot for you to return your score? Or is it? Perhaps NOT playing competions is a good idea for players fragile enough that bad form makes them want to stop playing, maybe stick to social golf with mates
As I said, I don't care if a player currently walks off. I have no returned before (not proud of it though). But, don't expect it to be so easy to do come November
I’m not missing any point and was a handicap Secretary for years so know what happens and the situation doesn’t change - taje your head out of any potential rules and understand the actual sport
Stop obsessing about something that is months away yet and just see what happens instead of looking for every possible eventuality
Swango1980
Well-known member
Probably, but rather do it now that it ruin my xmas
fundy
Ryder Cup Winner
Probably, but rather do it now that it ruin my xmas
its february ffs man, chill out enjoy your summer and worry about it when theres some more fat on the bones
Swango1980
Well-known member
You clearly have no idea how WHS will work, or you know more than England Golf. Things have moved on.
Unless you know what would happen if, say a player no returned so frequently, that for example they only submitted a score less than 40% of their rounds. Under WhS of course.
Maybe I should just completely ignore it until November? No, hang on, because I need to inform all the members of my club in the very near future (again, a request by england Golf). So, it is probably a good idea to think of all the question I will he asked, and have already been asked
Swango1980
Well-known member
PS: I changed the subject title and opening wording of this thread. Perhaps the word NR is sensitive enough to get peoples backs up. So, I just wanted to make it clear I raised it only because of what England Golf have asked from us (at the Workshop last week), and nothing to do with my own personal desire, or club desire, to punish people for an NR. The last thing we would ever want to do is wind up our own members, and I recognise it is a touchy subject.
ger147
Tour Winner
Do England Golf expect you to punish a player who completes 17 out of 18 holes but doesn't complete 1 hole as he unexpectedly can't find his ball having had no reason to suspect it might be lost?
At the moment, his other 17 hole scores are entered and his handicap is adjusted as appropriate, either up or down but his overall score in the competition is NR.
If the EG suggestion is adding a penalty score to my card for that 18th hole I didn't complete, does that mean I would then have an actual 18 hole total for the round? If yes, if that turns out to be the lowest nett score can I then win the competition?
At the moment, his other 17 hole scores are entered and his handicap is adjusted as appropriate, either up or down but his overall score in the competition is NR.
If the EG suggestion is adding a penalty score to my card for that 18th hole I didn't complete, does that mean I would then have an actual 18 hole total for the round? If yes, if that turns out to be the lowest nett score can I then win the competition?
doublebogey7
Head Pro
Simply no, any penalty score added is for handicap only and would not effect the finishing position in any competition.
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
No because the R&A rules of golf come in to effect first and your are DQd (in medal play) for failing to hole out.
Penalty scores are only added for handicap purposes.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Ger, in short no, thankfully.
It is what I am still trying to get my head around. However, if a player picks up on one or 2 holes (in a medal), and get an NR for the competition result, this is not the sort of thing that needs "punishment". Penalty scores for the uncompleted holes would more than likely be acceptable. The point is, that player has genuinely tried to play the round, and simply picked up as they are having a nightmare hole(s).
However, where it does become a problem, are the following examples:
- a score cannot be accepted for handicap purposes, in WHS, if less than 9 holes completed. So, let us say you have a player who, for whatever reason, wants to ensure their handicap stays low (maybe for vanity, or maybe to qualify for specific high end competitions in the county or nation). If they got off to a poor start, they could simply decide to walk in before 9 holes, thus effectively making it look like the round never happened. This is not an issue currently, as they'd still get 0.1 back added to handicap regardless if they NR or shoot a nett 100, so they might as well, currently, play on and try their best to save themselves on back 9. However, even if they are not trying to keep handicap low, same thing with WHS, the score would not count towards their handicap, and it should.
- A player completed at least 9 holes, but walks off at some point on back 9 without even trying to play the last few holes. Penalty scores need to be applied (not sure if the committee need to manually do this, or WHS will do it automatically). Now, maybe this would be OK if the player does it once in a blue moon. However, the more frequently they do this, and even if these scores are outside their best 8, it does increase the chances that it will push other poor scores into their top 8 which may not have been the case had they not NR'ed. Worst case scenario, a player has a habit of NRing more than 60% or their rounds, then they actually will have these NR rounds, with penalty scores, being part of their best 8.
- A player plays most of the round, if not all, but simply rip their card up and do not enter score. How do the Committee decide what score they had. They need to try and find it out if possible and enter it, which hopefully they could do my looking at the markers score on the card they marked. However, it is a bit of flaff, and if they both ripped up their cards, then the Committee could be stuck
ger147
Tour Winner
Right, so back to my scenario. I pick up on 1 hole, complete the other 17. At the moment, my overall score is NR and therefore I cannot win the comp even though my handicap can still be adjusted. In your scenario, if I get a penalty score for the 1 hole I didn't complete, can I still win the comp?
Swango1980
Well-known member
ger. No
In terms of the competition, exactly the same as now (obviously assuming it is a medal you are talking about). You didn't complete a hole, you are disqualified. However, your score still goes onto your handicap record (also like now)
Swango1980
Well-known member
PS.
It is a good question in terms of how it works from an "admin" perspective.
I would presume the player would have to type in "0" for the no score hole in the system. If the player themselves types in a penalty score, then the system would just assume that was their actual score. However, once the player types in "0" and they get an NR and DQ for that competition result, I'm not sure if WHS will automatically apply the penalty score in background, or the Committee will need to go in and type the penalty score themselves.
ger147
Tour Winner
Just reading the EG document "World Handicap System - FAQ's" document. It states that for any hole started but not completed you get a net double bogey, and for any holes not played at all you get a net par. At the moment when using the computer to input your score, missing out a hole or typing a "0" into the terminal both result in an NR being recorded for that hole. How will it work going forward i.e. the need to differentiate between a hole started but not completed vs a hole that was not played at all.
And a net par for not playing a hole??? Seems like a bit of a loop hole i.e. if you finish the 16th and are on a good score, just patch 17 and 18 and walk in if you want a handicap cut...
And a net par for not playing a hole??? Seems like a bit of a loop hole i.e. if you finish the 16th and are on a good score, just patch 17 and 18 and walk in if you want a handicap cut...
rosecott
Money List Winner
At the presentation we attended on Tuesday, it was stated that there would be codes to be inserted for no score holes - the actual codes have not yet been decided/finalised.
williamalex1
Money List Winner
Never a chance of you wining the comp anyway, but at least you wont holding the course up
Swango1980
Well-known member
During the presentation by England Golf, they were very clear about the need to discipline players for, but it is a bit vague as to what exactly is considered a serious breach, Probably subjective in some cases. This is the wording within the slides:
"Applying a Penalty Score
"Applying a Penalty Score
- If a player fails to submit a score from an authorized format of play, the Handicap Committee should investigate and take appropriate action
- If the reason was valid the Score should not be posted
- If there was no valid reason and an acceptable score is discoverable, that score will be posted: and a club sanction may be applied.
- If the score is not discoverable, a penalty score must be posted.
- In the most serious cases, such as repeated failure to submit acceptable scores, the Committee has discretion to apply additional penalty scores, reset the player's Handicap Index or consider other disciplinary procedures.
- A player's Handicap Index should be withdrawn if they deliberately or repeatedly fail to comply with their responsibilities under the Rules of Handicapping
- A player must be notified of the period of Handicap Index withdrawal and any additional conditions
- The withdrawal of a player's Handicap Index should be applied only after the player has been informed and has had an opportunity to respond
- The process will be handled by the Handicap Committee and/or the County/National Union"
