Mixed tee matchplay

Colin L

Tour Winner
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
5,269
Location
Edinburgh
Visit site
This is where I have my doubts, does it apply for a mixed tee and subsequently differing SI and par. After all the Junior Boy only needs to play to his handicap to par 4 the hole yet the Junior Girl needs to play one better than her handicap to take 4 strokes and birdie the hole. Each plays their own course to their own SI and Par..

As said at least three times above, forget the par of an individual hole. It's irrelevant. Once the mixed tee allowance has been factored in it's as if the two players are playing from the same tees. If one is receiving strokes, they normally get them according to the SI of the course they are playing (and gender if the men's and women's SIs differ).
 

NearHull

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2018
Messages
1,014
Visit site
Ok , I’m now convinced. The Junior Boy won that hole. Area Handicap Advisor’s response.

For any mixed tee event you use an 'own ball/own par/SI' situation. For example, 4BBB or singles m/p, the player uses their own SI for giving/receiving strokes. If you share a ball (foursomes), you use the forward par/SI.
In this situation, as you describe, there are no strokes to be given. So whoever gets the best score for the hole will win.
As strokes have been allocated at the beginning of the round to take the difficulty of each course into account, there is no other adjustment required.
Consider: if you were playing another man, both off yellow tees, it is simply the best net score which will win. If you had a 5/4 and Fred had a 4/4, it is a simple half. Nothing to do with Fred having a par, and you having a bogey.
 

Lysander2307

New member
Joined
Aug 22, 2022
Messages
5
Visit site
Interesting thread, and sorry if I’m opening up the discussion again.

The Area Handicap Advisors response isn’t clear to me (own ball, own par/SI suggests the girl plays it as a par 5). We are having the same debate at our club. The text on the England Golf page states:

In Four-Ball formats from mixed tees, individual players score using the card and Stroke Index appropriate for the tee they are playing from.

So are we saying that the men treat our 7th hole as SI 1 (it’s a long par 4) and the women treat it as SI 17 (it’s a par 5) and there is no further consideration - the lowest gross score on that hole counts? That doesn’t seem right.

It makes sense if you are using the same SI (whether it’s the Ladies or Mens card) but the England Golf guidance is clearly not saying that.
 

RRidges

Active member
Joined
May 26, 2022
Messages
485
Visit site
It is individual matchplay. The handicap adjustment is for differences for CR. It rounds up to 1 shot for the ladies as it happens - but it is irrelevant for the question. Is the hole halved or won by the Junior Boy?
Using Wjemather's example, the girl is already getting 5 shots she is due from the difference in Pars, so getting any more would be inequitable.
FWIW. On the couple of courses I've played where that condition happens, it's likely to be one of the girl's shot holes anyway - as the SI for Men, as a long Par 4, is likely to be low anyway.
 

Colin L

Tour Winner
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
5,269
Location
Edinburgh
Visit site
I don't see the problem with each using the appropriate SI for their gender. Say I'm getting 3 strokes as is my female partner. On my own course, I would get my strokes at the 7th, 12th and 13th. My partner would get them at the 7th 11th and 13th. Why would be better for us to both receiving a stroke at the 11th or both at the 12th? Regardless of its difficulty, any hole at which you get a stroke is one stroke "easier" to win than without it because, to state the obvious, your net score is a stroke less than your gross score.
 
Last edited:

doublebogey7

Head Pro
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,836
Location
Leicester
Visit site
Interesting thread, and sorry if I’m opening up the discussion again.

The Area Handicap Advisors response isn’t clear to me (own ball, own par/SI suggests the girl plays it as a par 5). We are having the same debate at our club. The text on the England Golf page states:

In Four-Ball formats from mixed tees, individual players score using the card and Stroke Index appropriate for the tee they are playing from.

So are we saying that the men treat our 7th hole as SI 1 (it’s a long par 4) and the women treat it as SI 17 (it’s a par 5) and there is no further consideration - the lowest gross score on that while counts?
No, the lowest NET score counts??
 

Lysander2307

New member
Joined
Aug 22, 2022
Messages
5
Visit site
I don't see the problem with each using the appropriate SI for their gender. Say I'm getting 3 strokes as is my female partner. On my own course, I would get my strokes at the 7th, 12th and 13th. My partner would get them at the 7th 11th and 13th. Why would be better for us to both receiving a stroke at the 11th or both at the 12th? Regardless of its difficulty, any hole at which you get a stroke is one stroke "easier" to win than without it because, to state the obvious, your net score is a stroke less than your gross score.

All understood and I agree, I think the issue is that prior to WHS a single SI was used for all competitors but England Golf has specifically stated a different approach and I for one am not sure why.
 

Swango1980

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
10,642
Location
Lincolnshire
Visit site
All understood and I agree, I think the issue is that prior to WHS a single SI was used for all competitors but England Golf has specifically stated a different approach and I for one am not sure why.
If a lady is getting strokes on a man, use the ladies SI's. If the man gets shots on the lady, use the mens SI.

I'm guessing that the Stroke Indexes on your holes have been set based on difficulty relative to par? This might make sense to people based on Stableford scoring, but shows the problem with it when used in match play (which I believe was the original point in having stroke index values for holes).

If you forget par on your 7th hole, I assume it is simply one of the longer holes on the course (hence, as you said a long par 4 for men, par 5 for women). When you have two golfers playing head to head, the most likely factor that would give a lower handicapper an advantage over a higher one is length of hole, thus gives them the edge in getting a lower gross score. This may simply be down to the fact lower handicappers generally hit it further, but even if they don't, are more likely to play consistent golf from tee to hole, whereas the higher handicapper has more yardage to make mistakes. Therefore, in match play for ladies (even in lady versus lady), the more logical approach would to be to have a low SI on that hole (and they'd still likely get their shot on that hole versus a man if it was a low SI for ladies). However, as your club appear to have set it for Stableford, then it is far from ideal in match play, hence why I'm guessing it doesn't feel right to you? I guess, on the flip side, the lady will get a shot on another shorter hole that they'd find easier to compete with the gross score of the lower handicapper.

Another way to look at it is if you take mixed gender out of the equation. It is stroke index 1 for men. However, if that hole was changed to a short par 5, I assume the Club would change the SI to a much higher value? That would make sense for Stableford. However, in matchplay, the hole is not suddenly easier for the higher handicapper relative to the lower handicapper. Still a long hole, and still likely to need a shot on that hole due to its length.

Personally, I'm in favour of having SI values set up for match play. I've seen clubs who purely set it up for Stableford, and it just seems plain odd when playing a match. There was one club where, if you got about 8-10 shots, you pretty much got them all on consecutive holes from the 5th or 6th hole. You could play a 500+ yard par 5 and not get a shot, yet get a shot on a 170+ yard par 3.
 

Lysander2307

New member
Joined
Aug 22, 2022
Messages
5
Visit site
If a lady is getting strokes on a man, use the ladies SI's. If the man gets shots on the lady, use the mens SI.

I'm guessing that the Stroke Indexes on your holes have been set based on difficulty relative to par? This might make sense to people based on Stableford scoring, but shows the problem with it when used in match play (which I believe was the original point in having stroke index values for holes).

If you forget par on your 7th hole, I assume it is simply one of the longer holes on the course (hence, as you said a long par 4 for men, par 5 for women). When you have two golfers playing head to head, the most likely factor that would give a lower handicapper an advantage over a higher one is length of hole, thus gives them the edge in getting a lower gross score. This may simply be down to the fact lower handicappers generally hit it further, but even if they don't, are more likely to play consistent golf from tee to hole, whereas the higher handicapper has more yardage to make mistakes. Therefore, in match play for ladies (even in lady versus lady), the more logical approach would to be to have a low SI on that hole (and they'd still likely get their shot on that hole versus a man if it was a low SI for ladies). However, as your club appear to have set it for Stableford, then it is far from ideal in match play, hence why I'm guessing it doesn't feel right to you? I guess, on the flip side, the lady will get a shot on another shorter hole that they'd find easier to compete with the gross score of the lower handicapper.

Another way to look at it is if you take mixed gender out of the equation. It is stroke index 1 for men. However, if that hole was changed to a short par 5, I assume the Club would change the SI to a much higher value? That would make sense for Stableford. However, in matchplay, the hole is not suddenly easier for the higher handicapper relative to the lower handicapper. Still a long hole, and still likely to need a shot on that hole due to its length.

Personally, I'm in favour of having SI values set up for match play. I've seen clubs who purely set it up for Stableford, and it just seems plain odd when playing a match. There was one club where, if you got about 8-10 shots, you pretty much got them all on consecutive holes from the 5th or 6th hole. You could play a 500+ yard par 5 and not get a shot, yet get a shot on a 170+ yard par 3.

You are correct. The SIs were set a few years ago based on 5 years of Cat 1 golfers. Thanks for the reply, this is all helpful stuff!
 

rulefan

Tour Winner
Joined
Feb 21, 2013
Messages
14,484
Visit site
All understood and I agree, I think the issue is that prior to WHS a single SI was used for all competitors but England Golf has specifically stated a different approach and I for one am not sure why.
As the SI has some relevance to the need for a player to get a stroke then that should relate to the player involved not to all players.
 

rulefan

Tour Winner
Joined
Feb 21, 2013
Messages
14,484
Visit site
If a lady is getting strokes on a man, use the ladies SI's. If the man gets shots on the lady, use the mens SI.

I'm guessing that the Stroke Indexes on your holes have been set based on difficulty relative to par? This might make sense to people based on Stableford scoring, but shows the problem with it when used in match play (which I believe was the original point in having stroke index values for holes).

If you forget par on your 7th hole, I assume it is simply one of the longer holes on the course (hence, as you said a long par 4 for men, par 5 for women). When you have two golfers playing head to head, the most likely factor that would give a lower handicapper an advantage over a higher one is length of hole, thus gives them the edge in getting a lower gross score. This may simply be down to the fact lower handicappers generally hit it further, but even if they don't, are more likely to play consistent golf from tee to hole, whereas the higher handicapper has more yardage to make mistakes. Therefore, in match play for ladies (even in lady versus lady), the more logical approach would to be to have a low SI on that hole (and they'd still likely get their shot on that hole versus a man if it was a low SI for ladies). However, as your club appear to have set it for Stableford, then it is far from ideal in match play, hence why I'm guessing it doesn't feel right to you? I guess, on the flip side, the lady will get a shot on another shorter hole that they'd find easier to compete with the gross score of the lower handicapper.

Another way to look at it is if you take mixed gender out of the equation. It is stroke index 1 for men. However, if that hole was changed to a short par 5, I assume the Club would change the SI to a much higher value? That would make sense for Stableford. However, in matchplay, the hole is not suddenly easier for the higher handicapper relative to the lower handicapper. Still a long hole, and still likely to need a shot on that hole due to its length.

Personally, I'm in favour of having SI values set up for match play. I've seen clubs who purely set it up for Stableford, and it just seems plain odd when playing a match. There was one club where, if you got about 8-10 shots, you pretty much got them all on consecutive holes from the 5th or 6th hole. You could play a 500+ yard par 5 and not get a shot, yet get a shot on a 170+ yard par 3.
Some years ago CONGU recommended separate indices for match and strokeplay. See old Appendix G. Many clubs took it up. Australia had (and may still have) mandated SIs for both forms of play.
 
Last edited:

Lysander2307

New member
Joined
Aug 22, 2022
Messages
5
Visit site
As the SI has some relevance to the need for a player to get a stroke then that should relate to the player involved not to all players.

But if the hole SI differs between the two players significantly due to the Par difference and you are ignoring that, the SI for that player is irrelevant. This is my issue, the SI’s have not been set for matchplay, they have been set for Stableford.
 
Top