Mixed (Saturday) Golf

[jim8flog]

Why not have them as one single comp ? The processes and ability are there to allow everyone to play in the same competition- no need to separate because of sex.

Where I play the ladies requested a separate comp on Saturdays.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

We are also allowed to ask you if there any facts available to back up your contentions.

Opinions can sometimes be just that. We don't always need graphs and charts.

Clubchamp has absolutely got the gist of it. On certain holes the change in tee makes a negligible difference. On others it is not just about extra distance, although that matters, it is about the other hazards, mental and physical, that suddenly come into play. It may be water or trees that sudenly fill your vision, it may be a blind tee shot from one set of tees, full visibility from a different set. A complete change of angle can alter the hazard in the eyeline. Bunkering geared up for one set of tees becomes irrelevant from another set.

At my own course, in distance terms alone, the move from yellows to white tees puts every par 4 over 400yds and out of range for me in 2 shots. That's a massive impact.

In my opinion these differences are greater than the shot allowances that are supposed to level these out.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Opinions can sometimes be just that. We don't always need graphs and charts.

Clubchamp has absolutely got the gist of it. On certain holes the change in tee makes a negligible difference. On others it is not just about extra distance, although that matters, it is about the other hazards, mental and physical, that suddenly come into play. It may be water or trees that sudenly fill your vision, it may be a blind tee shot from one set of tees, full visibility from a different set. A complete change of angle can alter the hazard in the eyeline. Bunkering geared up for one set of tees becomes irrelevant from another set.

At my own course, in distance terms alone, the move from yellows to white tees puts every par 4 over 400yds and out of range for me in 2 shots. That's a massive impact.

In my opinion these differences are greater than the shot allowances that are supposed to level these out.

I think you have missed the point

Nice and simple - in 99% of cases men will play from the whites/yellows in a comp and the ladies will play from the reds

Their relative handicaps are gained from those tees - so when it comes to a mixed comp they still play off the tees that their handicap is based against , for some course the ladies tee are a touch harder for the ladies than the men’s tees are for the men hence why there are some level of course shot adjustments to balance up the handicaps for “result purposes”. It’s irrelevant how a hole looks from a different tee if you don’t normally play from i.

If the ladies want to go off the whites and it’s significantly a different course then their handicap off that tee ( provided it’s rated ) will change ( as per WHS and slope ) - same if men want to play off the reds - their handicap will be adjusted . That’s the whole idea of gender free tees

At the end of the day the tees used will be ones that the player is used to on a daily basis or anytime there is a competition- clubs all over country have mixed gender comps in action and it works for those clubs.

 

[rosecott]

Opinions can sometimes be just that. We don't always need graphs and charts.

Clubchamp has absolutely got the gist of it. On certain holes the change in tee makes a negligible difference. On others it is not just about extra distance, although that matters, it is about the other hazards, mental and physical, that suddenly come into play. It may be water or trees that sudenly fill your vision, it may be a blind tee shot from one set of tees, full visibility from a different set. A complete change of angle can alter the hazard in the eyeline. Bunkering geared up for one set of tees becomes irrelevant from another set.

At my own course, in distance terms alone, the move from yellows to white tees puts every par 4 over 400yds and out of range for me in 2 shots. That's a massive impact.

In my opinion these differences are greater than the shot allowances that are supposed to level these out.

So, I would expect your opinion to be supported by easily available corroboration such as results for ladies playing off the red tees to be significantly better than those of men off white or yellow tees. Or is that too simplistic an argument?

 

[GB72]

There is also an assumption that everyone will chose to play off the red tees. I know a number of golfers who would jump at the chance to move from the red tees to the yellows or whites in the same way that I also know a number of golfers who would be more than happy to move forward to the reds. At the end of the day, golf is about what is fun for you, for some that is a longer course, for some it is a shorter one but as long as the equations are there to keep it relatively even then lets get everyone playing the round of golf they enjoy most and, as importantly, on any day at any time.

 

[Foxholer]

If the tees have been rated as such then yes there is no reason why not - that’s the whole idea of have gender free tees and having them rated for all if the club wishes

Just because WHS has come does not mean 'traditional' setups should change!
It was totally possible to run combined comps under Congu only rules - and several have/did, but many/most didn't.

So the fundamental question I'd ask....Why wasn't this done in the 'Old' setup?

 

[Mandofred]

I play with quite a few people who I think consider whether the pork pies at the halfway house are ready to go to be the most important thing...... Don't like these really thick pork pies myself....yes .....I know that's a crime.....just too much meat. Now...provide me with a good burrito and hot sauce, yum. I'm obviously trying to change the subject.....

 

[GB72]

Just because WHS has come does not mean 'traditional' setups should change!
It was totally possible to run combined comps under Congu only rules - and several have/did, but many/most didn't.

So the fundamental question I'd ask....Why wasn't this done in the 'Old' setup?

Irrespective of what has gone on before, isn't equality with regards access to the course and competitions played from the tee that you find the most enjoyable what we should all be striving for, that really radical idea of making golf fun and accessible to all ages and sexes.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Just because WHS has come does not mean 'traditional' setups should change!
It was totally possible to run combined comps under Congu only rules - and several have/did, but many/most didn't.

So the fundamental question I'd ask....Why wasn't this done in the 'Old' setup?

it was done in the old set up by many clubs already ?

Clubs will do what suits their membership

And nowhere did anyone state that traditional set ups “should” change

WHS now allows more flexibility for clubs and it’s members if they so wish and you would hope for more equality that clubs that aren’t running comps for all start to migrate that way

 

[Foxholer]

it was done in the old set up by many clubs already ?
...

Fine, but I'd dispute the 'many'! Yours and Nick's are the only ones i know of!
I believe the vast majority have chosen not to do so, though it has always been possible - as evidenced by your and Nic'ks clubs approach!

...Clubs will do what suits their membership

And theres's no reason to (not!) add this change now - provided it 'suits their membership!

...
WHS now allows more flexibility for clubs and it’s members if they so wish and you would hope for more equality that clubs that aren’t running comps for all start to migrate that way

Er..How has it done that? There was just the same 'flexibility' in the Congu only system! As your (and Nick's) clubs approach 'proves'!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Fine, but I'd dispute the 'many'! Yours and Nick's are the only ones i know of!
I believe the vast majority have chosen not to do so, though it has always been possibl - as evidenced by your and Nicks.

I’m not sure the relevance ? What does it matter how many clubs have run mixed comps ? How does that make the process wrong ? Or unfair which was the main point of the discussion ?

And theres's no reason to (not!) add this change now - provided it 'suits their membership!

Again what’s the relevance ? No one has stated what clubs must do

Er..How has it done that? There was just the same 'flexibility' in the Congu only system!

Because a great deal more clubs are having all the tees rated for all as opposed to previously having just rated tees for specific sexes to try and show clubs and members that people of all genders can compete on the same level - it was highlighted on a number of WHS/IG calls and it was surprising how many were unaware of the ability to run mixed tee and gender competitions.

 

[Foxholer]

I’m not sure the relevance ? What does it matter how many clubs have run mixed comps ? How does that make the process wrong ? Or unfair which was the main point of the discussion ?



Again what’s the relevance ? No one has stated what clubs must do


Because a great deal more clubs are having all the tees rated for all as opposed to previously having just rated tees for specific sexes to try and show clubs and members that people of all genders can compete on the same level - it was highlighted on a number of WHS/IG calls and it was surprising how many were unaware of the ability to run mixed tee and gender competitions.

H'mm! Yours hasn't! Mine hasn't! Only 1 of my previous 3 clubs has - and then only partially! So that 'argument' is moot!
And they have been rated Congu style, so have always mixed comps have always been possible - or at least just as possible as now!
So that argument doesn't hold water!

I never stated running mixed comps was wrong! And there's nothing 'unfair' about having separate comps! As that has been possible for ages!

And the inference I detect from many of the posts on this thread is that clubs should now hold combined comps! Where, in fact, they have always been able to do so!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

So, I would expect your opinion to be supported by easily available corroboration such as results for ladies playing off the red tees to be significantly better than those of men off white or yellow tees. Or is that too simplistic an argument?

I don't follow the ladies comps so how they do off the reds is something I can't comment on. I know there's a good few of their tees i look at with envy though ?.

If we stick to yellows and whites, then level par will often win a whites medal whereas to win off the yellows you would need to be around 5-6 under. Under the new system I get 1 extra shot if I play off the whites. Would their be a correction in a comp greater than that 1 shot?

In terms of this discussion I can only reiterate that I know the system allows for all 3 tees to play the same comp but rather like the current handball rule in football it just feels wrong. I say this as someone who would benefit from it, yellow tees every time ?.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

H'mm! Yours hasn't! Mine hasn't! Only 1 of my previous 3 clubs has - and then only partially! So that 'argument' is moot!
And they have been rated Congu style, so have always mixed comps have always been possible - or at least just as possible as now!
So that argument doesn't hold water!

What argument is it you think you are “arguing” against ?

I know all clubs have been able to run mixed comps ?

I never stated running mixed comps was wrong! And there's nothing 'unfair' about having separate comps! As that has been possible for ages!

But the majority of posts in the thread from LT for example were about the fairness of them ?

And the inference I detect from many of the posts on this thread is that clubs should now hold combined comps! Where, in fact, they have always been able to do so!

No one has made any suggestion that clubs “should” hold combine comps ?

 

[Foxholer]

What argument is it you think you are “arguing” against ?

I know all clubs have been able to run mixed comps ?



But the majority of posts in the thread from LT for example were about the fairness of them ?



No one has made any suggestion that clubs “should” hold combine comps ?

Circles round going in!
Goodnight!
PS: 'Fairness' existed in the Congu system too - so nothing has changed fundamentally with WHS implementation!

 

[jim8flog]

I play with quite a few people who I think consider whether the pork pies at the halfway house are ready to go to be the most important thing...... Don't like these really thick pork pies myself....yes .....I know that's a crime.....just too much meat. Now...provide me with a good burrito and hot sauce, yum. I'm obviously trying to change the subject.....

and what happens to those who want a steak and kidney pie during the round? Surely there should be fairness to all pie eaters regardless of preference.

 

[Crazyface]

Why don't clubs run separate mens and ladies comps but on the same day. It's a free for all to book up the days slots but the comps are run in parallel. Ladies are playing in the ladies comp and men in the mens comp BUT all can play together. At my last club they used to run three mens comps together on the same day in parallel with each other. You r handicap determined which comp you were playing in. Sound complicated but it wasn't. I was chasing a guy in our group as I had a good card going and was gutted that he beat me, but it turned out he was actually in one of the other comps and I ended up 2nd in mine. LOL

 

[Fish]

and what happens to those who want a steak and kidney pie during the round? Surely there should be fairness to all pie eaters regardless of preference.

Where’s your ‘rolling eyes’ emoji, I thought they were all the fashion reading the last few posts ?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Where I play the ladies requested a separate comp on Saturdays.

It will all be down to how each membership works and what the majority wants - I don’t ever expect the traditional “Ladies Day” will ever change , it will exist for a long time because of the demographic of ladies within a golf club , but as long as the club are finding a way to cater for ladies who work then it’s a good step towards making the sport more inclusive for all.

I believe all clubs should have something in place to attract Ladies who can only play at the weekend and make them feel welcome and not separate in anyway - that’s why we went to making all the monthly medals and Stablefords open for all - as far as I’m aware it’s the same for the clubs in the area. The sooner clubs move away from the “Tuesday for Ladies and Saturdays for Men” the better - it’s another small stain that gives golf a bad name

 

[rosecott]

Fine, but I'd dispute the 'many'! Yours and Nick's are the only ones i know of!

You can now add mine - since 2004.