Mixed (Saturday) Golf

[clubchamp98]

brilliant

What about the Women who don’t want to play with the men?
If Harry Stiles played golf?

 

[jim8flog]

[

Almost all of our weekend comps (usually Sunday in our case) are mixed events. The only ones I can think of that aren't are the mens club champs.

Does that mean that men can play in the ladies champs

 

[badgergm]

Major Herbert Ponsoby-Smythe (Ret) here. What is all this nonsense about women playing golf at weekends. They should be at home doing the housework and preparing my Gin and Tonic for when I return. Apart from that lovely young filly behind the bar - think I'm in there.

Anyway, moving on 100 years to 2020 - we run all our competitions at weekends as mixed events. The ladies play from red tees, the men from whites. They are in the same groups - absolutely no issue at all.

But can the men play from the red tees if they want?
I think this whole discussion has got hung up on gender. I think the original opinion was expressed on,y in terms of running same competition from different tees.
so if the handicap is gained from the whites, where that person plays 95% of the time and switches to reds for the odd comp? perhaps a shorter hitter than the average assumed for course rating and slope calculations?

I think there is an argument there - but ultimately not sure it is any different to just low and high handicaps in same competition.

 

[fundy]

So. I have views, buckle up!

First and foremost, the best measure of equality at a golf club is to look at the ability to access the course (and play competitions) at weekends for men and women. This seems to vary greatly at different clubs and few achieve complete equality in this regard. That doesn't necessarily mean playing mixed competitions - that's only one possible solution to the problem.

Next, Tuesdays and Saturdays are very different matters. So to argue that the way things work on a Saturday must also be it goes on a Tuesday does not necessarily follow. If you're complaining about Tuesday vs Wednesday you're on more solid ground.

Everyone who says "the ladies" didn't want it. It will surprise many of you to learn that women are not a homogeneous group with the same likes, dislikes, aspirations or desires. If you are charging men and women the same money for a service you cannot offer a materially different experience to women. Not even if the majority of women accept that. We are all individuals and all individual members of the club should reasonably expect the same value for their money. Denying equal access to the course at weekends on the grounds that "that's what the ladies wanted" just gives you a self-sustaining barrier to working-age women joining your clubs. If there is a need to categorise golfers, gender is a very crude and inaccurate way to do it. Instead things like retired vs working, shift workers, preferences for competitive vs social golf, preference to play Saturday or Sunday at the weekend, handicap level etc. would be more useful.

Some women don't like playing with men and vice versa. I think the reasons are different and it's a bit unfortunate but there's no reason that can't be accommodated even in a mixed comp.

Different tees make no difference. The handicap system takes care of it and gives as "fair" an outcome as it does for single tee competitions. If you are happy with handicap comps but object to mixed comps on this basis give yourself a shake!

Let me guess you work monday to friday?

 

[fundy]

Yes, and I've been fighting this fight for years

I get it I do, but to say Tuesday and Saturday are different may be true for you and other monday to friday workers, but not for everyone ie those of us who work weekends and nights. Have suffered from not being able to get on my last course in the morning during the week because Im either male or under 55, depending on which day of the week it was, to the point where Thursday was the only day actually open to me in the morning and to be told I can play on a weekend (when I would be working!)

The only way it gets resolved if there is true equality, keeping a tuesday ladies day but wanting access on a saturday is not equality

 

[Beedee]

[Does that mean that men can play in the ladies champs

The ladies champs aren't played at the weekend

 

[fundy]

You're right, of course. I object to the argument that "they have Tuesday so we get Saturday", your problem was the opposite.

However, they are not the same. There are only two days at the weekend and there are five days during the week. The weekend times are the premium ones with the greatest demand. Scant consolation if your day off is the Tuesday, of course.

Moreover, and this is maybe too speculative, but I'd suggest that you probably had more options for moving to a different club that suited your working pattern better? Women generally have comparatively poor access to courses at weekends. I say this as someone who has been a member of several clubs, researched all of the others in the area and has reluctantly decided the only solution is to stay at one and make myself a pain in the arse until they sort it.

Other options yes, ones I wanted to play at no (Milton Keynes not flooded with good courses/clubs unless you could afford Woburn). I joined the committee and tried to get some changes made Funnily enough, the women had excellent access there!

A little devils advocate my post, I know, but it really does need to work in both directions. Good luck sorting it!

 

[DanFST]

So to summarise, with the rise of tee booking apps. There is absolutely no reason to have men and women only days, or even comp days (unless it's a club major).

It's what my club is doing and it works bloody well.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Why would "majors" be different?
Should clubs host single sex open competitions?

Asking for a friend

Yes they should.

Replying for a friend ?

 

[DanFST]

I can't work out if you are being obtuse!

We have 3 opens. Ladies, Gents and Juniors. Also a few majors for both men and women, all played on a weekend. Apart from that there's 0 big block bookings. any member can play on our course whenever they want bar about 12 days a year without entering comps.

 

[Bdill93]

I'm not being obtuse at all. And I'm speaking in general terms as I obviously know nothing about your club.

We host two men's opens at weekends, and two women's midweek.

For "majors" - that could mean anything but if they are single sex then the more comps that fall into that category the more equality suffers.

All these "exceptions" to equality add up.

Move to Worcester Kaz and join up at my club! You'd be treated fairly at least! Women can enter every single comp, including club championships. No tee preference days other than seniors Tuesday morning roll up between 8-10am! Online tee booking. Great system, brilliantly inclusive.

 

[sunshine]

Yes, and I've been fighting this fight for years

Well said. The "ladies section" is often controlled by retired housewives who have no interest in weekend golf, so there is no incentive for them to change. In the same way that progress at many golf clubs is hampered by the fact that golf club committees are run by older / retired men who want to maintain the status quo because it suits them.

I think a tipping point will come in the next ten years: the stereotypical female golf club member is a middle aged housewife who now has more time on her hands now the children have grown up. Maybe she had a job before she got married, but she has no intention of going back to work again. I think this stereotype is becoming increasingly rare.

 

[Crazyface]

With the increase in the competitive nature of womens sport at the highest level and the fact that the BBC can't afford mens sport so has switch to showing the ladies in action, it is actually giving womens sport a much higher profile and the competitive nature of it, is being shown to other younger girls. Sucks in air.....so I think that in a few years time there will be a big increase in younger ladies / girls getting involved in golf and wanting to play in competition. THIS is when clubs will HAVE to re-think how they do things.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

With the increase in the competitive nature of womens sport at the highest level and the fact that the BBC can't afford mens sport so has switch to showing the ladies in action, it is actually giving womens sport a much higher profile and the competitive nature of it, is being shown to other younger girls. Sucks in air.....so I think that in a few years time there will be a big increase in younger ladies / girls getting involved in golf and wanting to play in competition. THIS is when clubs will HAVE to re-think how they do things.

Although it is still Sky that are showing events like the Rose series, LET and LPGA, BT sport have had womens football and Sky have shown most of the womens cricket so I am not sure which sports BBC are show casing for aspirational girls other than athletics and gymnastics etc. I don't know what the participation numbers are for amateur female sport but I would assume football is the largest, cricket will be on the rise and don't know where golf fits into that but wonder what the uptake has been before and since lockdown 1.0

That isn't a dig at BBC's sport as I think they've laid their stall out regarding sport and it is good that womens sport is still getting a platform (and Sky Sport being available on many platforms). I think the demographic of membership (male and female) will change and with golf participation on the up the onus is really with the clubs now to grab the nettle and do all they can to get people in and more importantly keep them as members