Minister grabs activist

[ColchesterFC]

Imo he was angry , had a bit to drink and reacted to something that made him angry - there is no suggestion from anyone in the room there was a threat, she was Greenpeace as can be seen from the sash she was wearing , Greenpeace have been peaceful protesters in this country so it’s hard to see where he saw the threat but no one else appeared to in the whole room

I disagree with most of your post for many reasons but really just want to pick up on this. I believe that the term used to describe this sort of thing is "Monday morning Quarter-backing". It's easy after the event to say "Oh she was Greenpeace" but how does anyone know that at the time? Just because she has a sash that says Greenpeace that's good enough for you? I saw a bloke in the street the other day with a Liverpool number 8 shirt on that said Gerrard on the back. He must've been 5ft 8" and about 17 stone. I certainly didn't think "Oh look he's wearing that shirt he must be Steven Gerrard" and go over and ask him for an autograph.

 

[Hobbit]

The perfect outcome is the Minister security detail deal with the situation , they were near the minister - or the person leaves the women to walk past him because let’s be honest here she was posing no threat , none of the ladies in their were posing any threat and the only aggressive incident was the MP and this women , other ladies were asked to leave peacefully with the right level of minimum force. The smile is only relevant if people want to use it but it could mean many things.

But again it’s not the MP’s responsibility to act the way he did , he isn’t security , he isn’t the police , he wasn’t detailed to act as force , she walked past lots of other people with no incident , just like the other ladies in the room did, why did he feel a “threat” or did he just feel angry about what they were doing and just wanted them out ?

In his comments afterwards I don’t think I have seen or heard from him that he felt a threat from her ? There is a very thin line between doing the right thing and being the vigilant - I see lots of social media posts from people saying “let’s do this and that” “ let’s rise up” etc etc

Imo he was angry , had a bit to drink and reacted to something that made him angry - there is no suggestion from anyone in the room there was a threat, she was Greenpeace as can be seen from the sash she was wearing , Greenpeace have been peaceful protesters in this country so it’s hard to see where he saw the threat but no one else appeared to in the whole room

Now if it was a big 6 foot muscle bound man shouted and pointing and waving something at the minister and possibly in a foreign language then you could see a potential threat but then I suspect the MP would have cowered away

Either way right now this whole thing doesn’t look great - it’s all over media around the world , showing an MP grabbing and being forceful with a harmless women - he has been suspended , police looking into it , his own party chairman and leader condemning it alongside many many others- it’s a very sour event in the political world in the UK that once again makes you want to cover your eyes 🤦‍♂️

You did the best thing getting out

We all know what the perfect outcome should have been. We can all use hindsight with 20/20 vision. I find it incredulous that you feel that it should have been left to the security detail that was xx feet away when the situation was y feet away. "Its not the MP's responsibility" is naive and smacks of the computer says no mentality. Doing nothing on the off chance it was nothing more than noise will in most instances be ok but what about the time it isn't? How do you reconcile a death, a stabbing, an acid attack when someone was close enough to stop it?

20 years ago we all, probably, thought that the Tube bombings would never happen in the UK. That the London Bridge, Borough Market or Manchester Arena bombing would never happen. And I dare say we are all rightly still shocked by the Jo Cox MP killing. You feel the guy saw the red mist, had had a few drinks and overreacted. How can you overreact to a potential Jo Cox repeat? Yes, as things played out it didn't happen, and in 99.99% of instance it probably won't happen.

The guy is damned if he does, and if it was a credible threat, damned if he doesn't. Remember the Deputy Police Commissioner who did nothing when Keith Palmer was tragically killed? He was vilified. Doing nothing, in the current climate, isn't an option.

 

[Hobbit]

And now LP suggested it was drink related. You can't make it up.

He's looking to justify a failed argument by padding it with what might have beens...

 

[gmc40]

Interesting articles below.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ister-over-protester-neck-shove-a4172876.html

https://news.sky.com/story/unsettling-but-mansion-house-was-not-a-violent-protest-11746270

Doesn’t sound like much of a hero to me.

 

[robinthehood]

100 percent a case of excessive fuss.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Interesting articles below.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ister-over-protester-neck-shove-a4172876.html

https://news.sky.com/story/unsettling-but-mansion-house-was-not-a-violent-protest-11746270

Doesn’t sound like much of a hero to me.

I'm often amazed that people are so happy to just accept news stories that support their view without questioning them at all.

Sky story says there were "perhaps 10, certainly no more than a dozen" people that entered "most were women" and "there were only a couple of men". So at most there were 8-10 female protesters in the room and the journalist states that "The treatment of the protesters that I witnessed was pretty gentle, to say the least, with most of the women being escorted from the room being taken out by other women".

Now let's have a look at the Standard story. The first 4 photos show women being escorted from the room by men. The fifth photo shows a women escorting another woman however this is the same woman that has already been led out of the room by a man in the second photo. there are then photos of the incident with the MP and then a series of wider shots of more women being led out by both men and women. So the photos don't back up the claim that "most of the women being escorted from the room being taken out by other women". That's simply not true.

I'm with Hobbit on this one. In over 99% of cases it will be fine to sit by and do nothing when something like this happens. It's that one in a thousand, one in 10 thousand, 1 in a million time when it's not ok that people get hurt or killed. The same people criticising the MP for taking action would be the same ones criticising him if he hadn't taken action and something had happened. But it is laughable for people to be calling it horrific violence against a woman.

 

[gmc40]

I'm often amazed that people are so happy to just accept news stories that support their view without questioning them at all.

Sky story says there were "perhaps 10, certainly no more than a dozen" people that entered "most were women" and "there were only a couple of men". So at most there were 8-10 female protesters in the room and the journalist states that "The treatment of the protesters that I witnessed was pretty gentle, to say the least, with most of the women being escorted from the room being taken out by other women".

Now let's have a look at the Standard story. The first 4 photos show women being escorted from the room by men. The fifth photo shows a women escorting another woman however this is the same woman that has already been led out of the room by a man in the second photo. there are then photos of the incident with the MP and then a series of wider shots of more women being led out by both men and women. So the photos don't back up the claim that "most of the women being escorted from the room being taken out by other women". That's simply not true.

I'm with Hobbit on this one. In over 99% of cases it will be fine to sit by and do nothing when something like this happens. It's that one in a thousand, one in 10 thousand, 1 in a million time when it's not ok that people get hurt or killed. The same people criticising the MP for taking action would be the same ones criticising him if he hadn't taken action and something had happened. But it is laughable for people to be calling it horrific violence against a woman.

What’s to question? The reports show that his reaction was disproportionate in comparison to the others. There’s only 4 or 5 women in the photos that appear to be protestors. Some of the others in red dresses are hostesses.

Rather than him “eliminating a threat” as some have laughably suggested, it’s more likely he’s had a couple of vinos, saw some action and an easy target and thought “I’ll have some of that” in an ill judged attempt at being a hero.

I bet he wouldn’t have done it if it was a bloke.

 

[Beezerk]

The same people criticising the MP for taking action would be the same ones criticising him if he hadn't taken action and something had happened.

That's quite a statement lol.
Last time I checked the news absolutely nothing violent happened at this peaceful protest, or at least no violence or threats on the part of the protesters
Out of interest I asked three different people their views on this over a few beers last night, each one said the MP was heavy handed and in the wrong. I was actually relieved as I thought my moral compass had gone way off
Good debate though.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I'm often amazed that people are so happy to just accept news stories that support their view without questioning them at all.

Sky story says there were "perhaps 10, certainly no more than a dozen" people that entered "most were women" and "there were only a couple of men". So at most there were 8-10 female protesters in the room and the journalist states that "The treatment of the protesters that I witnessed was pretty gentle, to say the least, with most of the women being escorted from the room being taken out by other women".

Now let's have a look at the Standard story. The first 4 photos show women being escorted from the room by men. The fifth photo shows a women escorting another woman however this is the same woman that has already been led out of the room by a man in the second photo. there are then photos of the incident with the MP and then a series of wider shots of more women being led out by both men and women. So the photos don't back up the claim that "most of the women being escorted from the room being taken out by other women". That's simply not true.

I'm with Hobbit on this one. In over 99% of cases it will be fine to sit by and do nothing when something like this happens. It's that one in a thousand, one in 10 thousand, 1 in a million time when it's not ok that people get hurt or killed. The same people criticising the MP for taking action would be the same ones criticising him if he hadn't taken action and something had happened. But it is laughable for people to be calling it horrific violence against a woman.

No we wouldn't, the vast majority would expect anyone to take a reasonable and appropriate action. We certainly would not be blaming anyone sat in that room if this one in a million situation happened.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Johnny Mercer’s quote in The Standard article sums it up perfectly;”If you think this is serious violence you need to recalibrate your sensitivities.”

 

[gmc40]

Johnny Mercer’s quote in The Standard article sums it up perfectly;”If you think this is serious violence you need to recalibrate your sensitivities.”

I don’t think anyone is calling it “serious violence”, are they? Just unnecessary force imo.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I don’t think anyone is calling it “serious violence”, are they? Just unnecessary force imo.

It is being treated as though it is serious violence by those leading the witch-hunt.

 

[Beezerk]

It is being treated as though it is serious violence by those leading the witch-hunt.

Yeah but she could have stabbed him with a butter knife

 

[gmc40]

It is being treated as though it is serious violence by those leading the witch-hunt.

Is it? I think you’ll always find people who overreact in any situation. Best just to ignore them and think logically. For me, he could have stopped her and had the same result without grabbing her in the manner he did. He tried to be a hero and ended up looking like a div and a bully. Hasn’t done himself any favours.

 

[bobmac]

He stopped her and pushed her back the way she came. She upped the anti by trying to turn back and get passed him so he increased his deterrent by grabbing her right arm with his right hand and her neck, the only part of her body he could hold with his other hand.
In my opinion he used reasonable force

 

[PhilTheFragger]

My balanced view having seen the video and listened to the media storm.

1, she shouldn’t have been there, total failure of security at such a high profile event.

2, his reaction was not premeditated, it was a spur of the moment decision to intercept her.

3, yes he used some force, but he didn’t strike her, he grabbed her and frogmarched her out.

4, she could have been armed, impossible to gauge in the short time available .

5, would he have taken the same action if the protester was a bloke?

All in all, if you are a protester gatecrashing such an event, you must expect some physical intervention to keep you out.

If it happened in America there would have been a dozen secret service agents with weapons drawn

Judge Fragger’s verdict is........

Minor scuffle blown out of proportion by the politically correct

 

[ColchesterFC]

I don’t think anyone is calling it “serious violence”, are they? Just unnecessary force imo.

Maybe not calling it serious violence but definitely being called "violence" and even "horrific".

"Mayor of London Sadiq Khan welcomed the police action. “Violence against women is endemic in our society and this behaviour is unacceptable. He should consider his position,” Mr Khan added".

"Labour's shadow women and equalities secretary Dawn Butler described the incident as "horrific" and said "so much violence does not seem justified".

 

[Grant85]

I don't think the actions by the MP were sensible at all and in my view don't look good for him. But i think it is marginal to think they would warrant an assault charge or conviction and i think it is fair enough that the protestor has said she isn't making a complaint to the police. She probably expected that kind of treatment from security staff.

But he shouldn't have done it and I think there is simply no way he would have gotten involved if it had been a male protester.

I don't think for one second he felt threatened for his own safety or seriously thought the protestor was armed. He was just annoyed at the front of these folk making a protest and disrupting a fancy dinner.

 

[Hobbit]

Maybe not calling it serious violence but definitely being called "violence" and even "horrific".

"Mayor of London Sadiq Khan welcomed the police action. “Violence against women is endemic in our society and this behaviour is unacceptable. He should consider his position,” Mr Khan added".

"Labour's shadow women and equalities secretary Dawn Butler described the incident as "horrific" and said "so much violence does not seem justified".

Maybe Khan should consider his position as the number of murders and stabbings in London are out of control. There's lots of politicians on both sides of the argument I'd give time to. Khan is nowhere near one of them.

 

[Pin-seeker]

I just hope she makes a full recovery from injuries she’ll have suffered,both mentally & physically 🙄

We really do live in a world of over sensitive drama queens.