Matchplay and medal

[Foxholer]

Since starting this thread I have read opinions with interest and see valid points on both sides of the argument. What I don't understand is how agreeing to play each other in a strokeplay format is not in the spirit of the game but a coin toss is. Surely the spirit of the game is only served by playing the game.

As I stated earlier, if it's purely to get a result - and the Conditions of Competition allow it - then any method - including picking which slug will make the longest trail, tossing a coin or who has the best score in the Strokeplay comp - is acceptable. But that's different from what was described in the OP - playing Strokeplay and Matchplay in the 1 round! That is specifically prohibited by Rules of Golf (33/1) - Matchplay result being null and void and both competitors being DQ-ed from the Strokeplay comp.

 

[robert.redmile]

I would never play golf like this, your approach to the game and shot decision is so different. In match play I will definatly take on shots I wouldn't in stroke play.

Saying this is a stupid rule and could put people off taking up the game is ridiculous, I've never been in this situation in over 20 years of playing.

I didn't say people wouldn't take up the game because of this. You must have mis-read my post.

.............."
I didn't say that "people won't take up golf because of this"

what I said was "it's another example of golf having over complex rules which acts as a barrier "

 

[Foxholer]

I didn't say people wouldn't take up the game because of this. You must have mis-read my post.

.............."
I didn't say that "people won't take up golf because of this"

what I said was "it's another example of golf having over complex rules which acts as a barrier "

You should at least include your entire quote!

just seems another silly set of rules that act as a barrier to entry for newcomers and make golf seem overly complex to the outsider.

If that doesn't imply 'newcomers will be put off' then I'd like a proper explanation of what you mean!

 

[robert.redmile]

ok, here goes.....there is a perception (rightly or wrongly) by the outside world, that golf has an overly complex set of rules, that act as one of numerous barriers to entry to play golf. In my opinion, the ruling that you cannot play a match as part of a strokeplay event, provided both parties agree, and play to strokeplay rules, and use the strokeplay score to determine the result of the match, is another example of golf making things over complicated. In this instance, it is deemed acceptable and part of the rules to simply toss a coin to determine the winner if the game cannot be played, rather than use something that at least has some relation to a persons relative play on a round of golf versus another golfer, relative to both their handicaps - the rule book in golf, cumbersome and very difficult to fathom, for anyone other than a committed golfer (and difficult for many of them as well) does not help encourage new entrants into the game. (we have all heard stories of disq, being publicly humiliated for an innocent mistake, pro's whose reputation has been shattered for a moments lapse in concentration, and golf club members who have either left a club, or fallen out with lifelong friends because of a transgression of the rules)

This perceived complicated rule set, and "punishment" for breaking the rules, can be seen by many debates around bifurcation for the pro and amateur game, and the fact that many (again rightly or wrongly) feel that golf is a game where the rules are hard to understand, and further to this, the attitude of some (again rightly or wrongly) who frequent golf clubs have lead to many occasions when someone who has inadvertently broken the rules to feel belittled and embarrassed. This does not, and cannot help the desire of many in golf to develop the game.

A slimming down of the rules, and removal of idiosyncrasies such as is it one club relief, or two, one shot or two penalty would in a small way be one small step to making golf seem more attractive to the outside world, and take golf down the path of being a sport that continue to thrive in the modern world.

This rules issue, is one small part of a myriad of things that golf needs to address in its desire to halt the decline in membership, and allow the game to grow.

 

[jamielaing]

ok, here goes.....there is a perception (rightly or wrongly) by the outside world, that golf has an overly complex set of rules, that act as one of numerous barriers to entry to play golf. In my opinion, the ruling that you cannot play a match as part of a strokeplay event, provided both parties agree, and play to strokeplay rules, and use the strokeplay score to determine the result of the match, is another example of golf making things over complicated. In this instance, it is deemed acceptable and part of the rules to simply toss a coin to determine the winner if the game cannot be played, rather than use something that at least has some relation to a persons relative play on a round of golf versus another golfer, relative to both their handicaps - the rule book in golf, cumbersome and very difficult to fathom, for anyone other than a committed golfer (and difficult for many of them as well) does not help encourage new entrants into the game. (we have all heard stories of disq, being publicly humiliated for an innocent mistake, pro's whose reputation has been shattered for a moments lapse in concentration, and golf club members who have either left a club, or fallen out with lifelong friends because of a transgression of the rules)

this perceived complicated rule set, and "punishment" for breaking the rules, can be seen by many debates around bifurcation for the pro and amateur game, and the fact that many (again rightly or wrongly) feel that golf is a game where the rules are hard to understand, and further to this, the attitude of some (again rightly or wrongly) who frequent golf clubs have lead to many occasions when someone who has inadvertently broken the rules to feel belittled and embarrassed. This does not, and cannot help the desire of many in golf to develop the game.

A slimming down of the rules, and removal of idiosyncrasies such as is it one club relief, or two, one shot or two penalty would in a small way be one small step to making golf seem more attractive to the outside world, and take golf down the path of being a sport that continue to thrive in the modern world.

This rules issue, is one small part of a myriad of things that golf needs to address in its desire to halt the decline in membership, and allow the game to grow.

agreed

 

[Region3]

ok, here goes.....there is a perception (rightly or wrongly) by the outside world, that golf has an overly complex set of rules, that act as one of numerous barriers to entry to play golf. In my opinion, the ruling that you cannot play a match as part of a strokeplay event, provided both parties agree, and play to strokeplay rules, and use the strokeplay score to determine the result of the match, is another example of golf making things over complicated. In this instance, it is deemed acceptable and part of the rules to simply toss a coin to determine the winner if the game cannot be played, rather than use something that at least has some relation to a persons relative play on a round of golf versus another golfer, relative to both their handicaps - the rule book in golf, cumbersome and very difficult to fathom, for anyone other than a committed golfer (and difficult for many of them as well) does not help encourage new entrants into the game. (we have all heard stories of disq, being publicly humiliated for an innocent mistake, pro's whose reputation has been shattered for a moments lapse in concentration, and golf club members who have either left a club, or fallen out with lifelong friends because of a transgression of the rules)

This perceived complicated rule set, and "punishment" for breaking the rules, can be seen by many debates around bifurcation for the pro and amateur game, and the fact that many (again rightly or wrongly) feel that golf is a game where the rules are hard to understand, and further to this, the attitude of some (again rightly or wrongly) who frequent golf clubs have lead to many occasions when someone who has inadvertently broken the rules to feel belittled and embarrassed. This does not, and cannot help the desire of many in golf to develop the game.

A slimming down of the rules, and removal of idiosyncrasies such as is it one club relief, or two, one shot or two penalty would in a small way be one small step to making golf seem more attractive to the outside world, and take golf down the path of being a sport that continue to thrive in the modern world.

This rules issue, is one small part of a myriad of things that golf needs to address in its desire to halt the decline in membership, and allow the game to grow.

You can.

But strictly speaking you haven't played a matchplay tie, just decided by other means who will concede it.

No rules broken, winner decided.

 

[Foxholer]

ok, here goes.....there is a perception (rightly or wrongly) by the outside world, that golf has an overly complex set of rules, that act as one of numerous barriers to entry to play golf. In my opinion, the ruling that you cannot play a match as part of a strokeplay event, provided both parties agree, and play to strokeplay rules, and use the strokeplay score to determine the result of the match, is another example of golf making things over complicated. In this instance, it is deemed acceptable and part of the rules to simply toss a coin to determine the winner if the game cannot be played, rather than use something that at least has some relation to a persons relative play on a round of golf versus another golfer, relative to both their handicaps - the rule book in golf, cumbersome and very difficult to fathom, for anyone other than a committed golfer (and difficult for many of them as well) does not help encourage new entrants into the game. (we have all heard stories of disq, being publicly humiliated for an innocent mistake, pro's whose reputation has been shattered for a moments lapse in concentration, and golf club members who have either left a club, or fallen out with lifelong friends because of a transgression of the rules)

This perceived complicated rule set, and "punishment" for breaking the rules, can be seen by many debates around bifurcation for the pro and amateur game, and the fact that many (again rightly or wrongly) feel that golf is a game where the rules are hard to understand, and further to this, the attitude of some (again rightly or wrongly) who frequent golf clubs have lead to many occasions when someone who has inadvertently broken the rules to feel belittled and embarrassed. This does not, and cannot help the desire of many in golf to develop the game.

A slimming down of the rules, and removal of idiosyncrasies such as is it one club relief, or two, one shot or two penalty would in a small way be one small step to making golf seem more attractive to the outside world, and take golf down the path of being a sport that continue to thrive in the modern world.

This rules issue, is one small part of a myriad of things that golf needs to address in its desire to halt the decline in membership, and allow the game to grow.

So are you now saying that the Rules ARE putting folk off?

I wish you'd make up you mind!

Btw. I think you are talking twaddle! It's not the Rules that are putting people off playing. Cost and time involved are the major causes imo! And the realisation that considerable effort and dedication (something in short supply these days) is required to become even adequate at the game!

And the 1 vs 2 club length issue is simple! If it's free it's 1 (from Nearest Point of Relief); if it's under penalty, it's 2 (from the Reference Point)! Ball can roll a further 2 CLs in either case. Yellow Staked Water Hazards don't allow the 2CL relief though, just back in line (or replay). Reds, however, do (and from either side).

The bifurcation debate is not about the fundamental rules either - only about equipment. There is currently bifurcation around grooves - until 2024 - and that's working perfectly satisfactorily! The biggest bifurcation issue is about the distances elite players are hitting!

 

[robert.redmile]

So are you now saying that the Rules ARE putting folk off?

I wish you'd make up you mind!

Btw. I think you are talking twaddle! It's not the Rules that are putting people off playing. Cost and time involved are the major causes imo! And the realisation that considerable effort and dedication (something in short supply these days) is required to become even adequate at the game!

And the 1 vs 2 club length issue is simple! If it's free it's 1 (from Nearest Point of Relief); if it's under penalty, it's 2 (from the Reference Point)! Ball can roll a further 2 CLs in either case. Yellow Staked Water Hazards don't allow the 2CL relief though, just back in line (or replay). Reds, however, do (and from either side).

The bifurcation debate is not about the fundamental rules either - only about equipment. There is currently bifurcation around grooves - until 2024 - and that's working perfectly satisfactorily! The biggest bifurcation issue is about the distances elite players are hitting!

fox, yet again you haven't read (or have chosen to ignore) what I have written.

As for your last comment about relief, I rest my case about rules being complicated.

 

[Foxholer]

fox, yet again you haven't read (or have chosen to ignore) what I have written.

As for your last comment about relief, I rest my case about rules being complicated.

Nope! Read them, but you seem to be saying one thing then the other!

And then talking twaddle about a completely new aspect!

My explanations tend to be overly-convoluted! Basically simple (trivial even). Just have to be aware of 1 'anomoly' - which isn't an anomoly! There I go being convoluted again!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Sorry I think it's all nonsense

How many complicated rules are there in rugby ? Football etc

Every sport has its rules which in friendlies etc can be ignored

But in rugby do they ignore rules in amateur comps - no , in football do they turn up for a Sunday league and forget about playing the offside rule as its a bit complex ?! No - so why do you expect to be allowed to agree to forget rules in a comp in golf which effects not just you ?!

The overall rules in golf are very simple and the majority find it no issue to follow them - I don't recall many run out of golf clubs for innocent mistakes

Rules aren't stopping the game from growing - cost does

Rules are always assessed on a yearly basis and they do change - grooves , dmds , belly putters as example and there are a few that might need a better look at but the fundamental basic rules have been just fine and dandy for over hundred years and haven't been a hindrance to the game

If they bother someone that much then read up on them to give yourself a better understanding

 

[Canary_Yellow]

Sorry I think it's all nonsense

How many complicated rules are there in rugby ? Football etc

Every sport has its rules which in friendlies etc can be ignored

But in rugby do they ignore rules in amateur comps - no , in football do they turn up for a Sunday league and forget about playing the offside rule as its a bit complex ?! No - so why do you expect to be allowed to agree to forget rules in a comp in golf which effects not just you ?!

The overall rules in golf are very simple and the majority find it no issue to follow them - I don't recall many run out of golf clubs for innocent mistakes

Rules aren't stopping the game from growing - cost does

Rules are always assessed on a yearly basis and they do change - grooves , dmds , belly putters as example and there are a few that might need a better look at but the fundamental basic rules have been just fine and dandy for over hundred years and haven't been a hindrance to the game

If they bother someone that much then read up on them to give yourself a better understanding

The rules of football and rugby are the same in every match / competition. They aren't in golf. So yes, I'd say the rules of golf are more complicated. They also have to deal with a lot of different scenarios and circumstances in a way that football and rugby don't.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The rules of football and rugby are the same in every match / competition. They aren't in golf. So yes, I'd say the rules of golf are more complicated. They also have to deal with a lot of different scenarios and circumstances in a way that football and rugby don't.

Doesn't make the point any less valid

You don't ignore the rules in competitive games in those sports so why in golf ?

And they still both have big complex rule books

 

[Foxholer]

The rules of football and rugby are the same in every match / competition. They aren't in golf. So yes, I'd say the rules of golf are more complicated. They also have to deal with a lot of different scenarios and circumstances in a way that football and rugby don't.

15 a side vs 7s Rugby has different Rules - not just about time and number of players. Pretty much equivalent to Matchplay vs Strokeplay.

Test and Limited Over Cricket has different Rules - not just about periods of play!

So plenty of examples of differing - and occasionally complicated - sets of Rules for different forms of same sport!

 

[ger147]

So are you now saying that the Rules ARE putting folk off?

I wish you'd make up you mind!

Btw. I think you are talking twaddle! It's not the Rules that are putting people off playing. Cost and time involved are the major causes imo! And the realisation that considerable effort and dedication (something in short supply these days) is required to become even adequate at the game!

And the 1 vs 2 club length issue is simple! If it's free it's 1 (from Nearest Point of Relief); if it's under penalty, it's 2 (from the Reference Point)! Ball can roll a further 2 CLs in either case. Yellow Staked Water Hazards don't allow the 2CL relief though, just back in line (or replay). Reds, however, do (and from either side).

The bifurcation debate is not about the fundamental rules either - only about equipment. There is currently bifurcation around grooves - until 2024 - and that's working perfectly satisfactorily! The biggest bifurcation issue is about the distances elite players are hitting!

Question on the "Yellows don't allow the 2CL relief" statement.

I'm currently looking at the diagram for water hazards for rule 26 (yellow stakes or lines) and if you look at the diagram and then the options for where to drop, one of them is within 2 club lengths of point C (sorry, can't post the diagram as on my phone and looking at the diagram on works PC but can't post it from there) or within 2 club lengths of point E.

So not quite sure where the no 2CL statement comes from in this instance?

 

[Canary_Yellow]

Doesn't make the point any less valid

You don't ignore the rules in competitive games in those sports so why in golf ?

And they still both have big complex rule books

I agree that rules shouldn't be ignored.

For me though, the appropriate debate to have is whether there is anything that should be done to change those rules for the better.

That's a healthy debate to be had even if the ultimate conclusion is that the rules should stay as they are. Just accepting the status quo on the basis of the rules being the rules and that's the end of it doesn't seem like the best path to take.

When a new player comes to the sport and questions why a particular rule exists, the answer should be a proper explanation of why it's required and how it works for the benefit of participants and not simply "because the rule book says so". The closer we get to the latter, the closer we get to having an irrelevant and outdated set of rules. I'm not saying that's where we are, but if we don't take a progressive attitude to discussing why rules exist as they are, then we will get there quickly and there will become a real issue of people being put off the game for that reason.

 

[ger147]

Question on the "Yellows don't allow the 2CL relief" statement.

I'm currently looking at the diagram for water hazards for rule 26 (yellow stakes or lines) and if you look at the diagram and then the options for where to drop, one of them is within 2 club lengths of point C (sorry, can't post the diagram as on my phone and looking at the diagram on works PC but can't post it from there) or within 2 club lengths of point E.

So not quite sure where the no 2CL statement comes from in this instance?

Apologies my mistake, read yellow stakes at the top and saw the diagram at the bottom. Missed the lateral water hazard (red stakes) paragraph in the middle before the diagram.

 

[Foxholer]

Apologies my mistake, read yellow stakes at the top and saw the diagram at the bottom. Missed the lateral water hazard (red stakes) paragraph in the middle before the diagram.

View attachment 15207

That lack of a 2CL Relief puzzled me for a little while, though an incident where I screwed up (claiming that it WAS allowed) brought it home. I believe the reasoning is that it forces the Water Hazard to be negotiated again, rather than being able to treat it like a Lateral WH in certain circumstances - such as Westwood's screw back into the water in the PGA at Wentworth (it was exactly that circumstance, hole, shot and pin position that I screwed up!). Lateral Water Hazards are a different story - ditches can be very long - so the 2CL rule is sensible.

I've always looked on the Rules as being equatible and mainly fair, if occasionally somewhat cruel! The need to have so many is simply down to the vast number of circumstances that can arise! They still embody the principles of the original 13 - which weren't need at all for over 300 years!

 

[MadAdey]

I've always looked on the Rules as being equatible and mainly fair, if occasionally somewhat cruel! The need to have so many is simply down to the vast number of circumstances that can arise! They still embody the principles of the original 13 - which weren't need at all for over 300 years!

I do not see a problem with the rules of golf, what you need to do is teach new players the basics, not them rely on picking them up from Bob and Fred who have no clue but insist on trying to tell others. Only 2 rules need looking into, divots and spike marks on greens. But the first is open to too much interpretation and abuse and the other will get ridiculous when players and flattening the line on a 40' putt.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I agree that rules shouldn't be ignored.

For me though, the appropriate debate to have is whether there is anything that should be done to change those rules for the better.

That's a healthy debate to be had even if the ultimate conclusion is that the rules should stay as they are. Just accepting the status quo on the basis of the rules being the rules and that's the end of it doesn't seem like the best path to take.

When a new player comes to the sport and questions why a particular rule exists, the answer should be a proper explanation of why it's required and how it works for the benefit of participants and not simply "because the rule book says so". The closer we get to the latter, the closer we get to having an irrelevant and outdated set of rules. I'm not saying that's where we are, but if we don't take a progressive attitude to discussing why rules exist as they are, then we will get there quickly and there will become a real issue of people being put off the game for that reason.

I have never ever heard of someone being out of the game based on the rules being complicated

Yes rules get visited by people regualry but how often do people want to question the fundamentals of golf ?

I don't think I have ever come across a rule that spoils my enjoyment of the game

If people start to think too much about the rules I would question why when the game is so simple - hit ball - walk then hit ball again. When situations arrive that require a ruling then a quick check of the rules doesn't take too long -

And the question why rules are there is simple answer - to allow the game to be played fairly by everyone

 

[Old Skier]

You can play matchplay after playing the course but not strokeplay. In theory I believe you can submit your strokeplay score and match play directly after. Either way it is common practice at my course and the pro has confirmed that it is allowed.

I think you need to stop listening to the pro.