Matchplay and medal

[Curls]

I can see both sides here.

I realise that to someone who isn't that formal or even bothered about one or either competition that it might seem a pragmatic solution to play both at once.

However, it is against the rules, and there are plenty rules we don't like that we have to abide by! But the simplest way I'll put it is this:

Do either of you want to play the round knowing that whoever you meet in the next round could have you DQ'd in a heartbeat. Because there are plenty folk who would happily take that buy to the next round. Personally I wouldn't give them the chance for the sake of another round of golf some evening, matchplay is played at a pace and teeing off after 6 these days could see the match out on a quiet course...

Your choice, no one can stop you breaking the rule, but someone could enforce it after the fact.

 

[Foxholer]

as long as both parties agree to no gimmes, and to always play the hole out, what's the problem?

Because for some rules, an opponent who is present can decide it's in their interest to 'ignore' a breach, or make a concession. This cannot be done in Strokeplay (every other competitor would need to be consulted), so a 'lowest common denominator' penalty (or action) is applied.

I am almost certain that the difference between Matchplay and Strokeplay is NOT a consideration of anyone considering taking the game up!
It annoys me that folk attempt to blame such rules for the reduction in participation! There are plenty of other, more relevant, reasons though!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I know its against the rules, but that doesn't make it right.

just seems another silly set of rules that act as a barrier to entry for newcomers and make golf seem overly complex to the outsider.

We get lots of threads on here asking how do we make golf more popular, and making the rules easier to understand has to be high on the list in my opinion. (along with a complete change in culture from many of the people who see themselves as some sort of god because they are part of the golf club committee, but that's another story!!)

Sorry but that's nonsense - what hard to understand - you can't play matchplay match alongside a stroke play comp - quite simple

You can't play two comps in one game in most if not all sports

Nothing silly about it - common sense

 

[chrisd]

You can't play two comps in one game in most if not all sports

Nothing silly about it - common sense

I can just see the argument for having a 20/20 game in the middle of a test match, that'd be interesting!

 

[rosecott]

as long as both parties agree to no gimmes, and to always play the hole out, what's the problem?

OK, so, despite a great deal of sensible advice, you decide to plough on and combine playing a medal simultaneously with a matchplay.

How are you going to deal with the following situations?

6 holes into the round it is discovered that one player has 15 clubs in his bag. Which penalty to apply? Deduction of 2 holes in matchplay or 4-stroke penalty in strokeplay.
While waiting to play your second shot on any hole, to pass the time you throw an old ball down and whack it over the fence into the driving range. Which penalty to apply?Loss of hole in matchplay, 2-stroke penalty in strokeplay.
You play from outside the teeing ground. Which penalty to apply? No penalty in matchplay but opponent can make you play again, 2-stroke penalty in strokeplay and play again from within the teeing ground.
You play a wrong ball. Which penalty to apply? Loss of hole in matchplay, 2-stroke penalty in strokeplay.
Grounding your club while playing the ball in a hazard. Which penalty to apply? Loss of hole in matchplay, 2-stroke penalty in strokeplay.

Are these enough for you? There are more.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

In all of those scenarios, except for the teeing ground one, why would the answer "both" not work?

For the teeing ground situation, if you don't correct the error presumably you're disqualified from the medal?
So that's your own problem. If you do correct it then it's remedied in both formats.

I'm not doubting there are good examples, but not sure those are them.

 

[robert.redmile]

There are some strange people on here. I didn't say that "people won't take up golf because of this"

what I said was "it's another example of golf having over complex rules which acts as a barrier " ( to add to all the others, of which there are loads, but some would probably deny them as well! "

 

[Deleted member 15344]

There are some strange people on here. I didn't say that "people won't take up golf because of this"

what I said was "it's another example of golf having over complex rules which acts as a barrier " ( to add to all the others, of which there are loads, but some would probably deny them as well! "

It's not another another example of over complex rules - it's quite simple - you can't play matchplay and stroke play together - what's complex about that ?

Every sport has rules - lots of rules. Golf is not different to any sport

 

[duncan mackie]

In all of those scenarios, except for the teeing ground one, why would the answer "both" not work?

For the teeing ground situation, if you don't correct the error presumably you're disqualified from the medal?
So that's your own problem. If you do correct it then it's remedied in both formats.

I'm not doubting there are good examples, but not sure those are them.

No- unless your opponent recalls your tee shot you have no right to replay from anywhere other than where you played your original tee shot so you would be playing 3 in the medal and lose the hole (for playing from a wrong place) in the match....

 

[chrisd]

There are some strange people on here. I didn't say that "people won't take up golf because of this"

what I said was "it's another example of golf having over complex rules which acts as a barrier " ( to add to all the others, of which there are loads, but some would probably deny them as well! "

When someone poses the question as to what we'd like to change in golf rules I almost always come up with that I'd like to see the rules of Matchplay and stroke play harmonised. I've never understood why something that's a 2 stroke penalty in stroke play is loss of hole in Matchplay.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

No- unless your opponent recalls your tee shot you have no right to replay from anywhere other than where you played your original tee shot so you would be playing 3 in the medal and lose the hole (for playing from a wrong place) in the match....

Well then, hardly insurmountable or a good reason why you can't play both at the same time.

I agree, it's less than ideal, and as has been said, the rules are very clear, however, if everybody just accepted all rules nothing would ever change. Ever.

Seems to me like there are a few scenarios that might lead you to have to concede the hole in Matchplay in order to keep your strokeplay score going, but surely all that does is disadvantage the player?

 

[duncan mackie]

Well then, hardly insurmountable or a good reason why you can't play both at the same time.

I agree, it's less than ideal, and as has been said, the rules are very clear, however, if everybody just accepted all rules nothing would ever change. Ever.

Seems to me like there are a few scenarios that might lead you to have to concede the hole in Matchplay in order to keep your strokeplay score going, but surely all that does is disadvantage the player?

Basically you have to play to the strokeplay rules - the end. As already said (slightly loosely) the solution is to agree that the player with poorest score in the medal, or theoretical looser on the basis of a card match, concedes the match.

 

[robert.redmile]

Why can't we have the following rule....

Rule 4567.45 (part b) " in a club medal competition should 2 players drawn together in a singles match in a different club competition, or 4 players in a doubles competition decide before the medal commences that they wish to count their medal score as their score in the knockout competition then they may do so under the following conditions.
1. Provided all parties agree,
2. that each players score on each hole is deemed their score in the match (and used to determine the number of holes won/lost.
2. A - that a n/r is deemed as concession of the hole that it occurred on.
3. That all play is conducted under stroke play rules.
4. That all players agree that it is only a game, that no one will die if they decide to do this, that no advantage is gained by anyone save the players themselves that may find it hard to play 2 matches in a short time, that they are not professionals and therefore the only possible ready to play is to have fun, and enjoy the game
5. That golf remains a game where the object is to get the ball in the hole in the least number of shots.

 

[rosecott]

When someone poses the question as to what we'd like to change in golf rules I almost always come up with that I'd like to see the rules of Matchplay and stroke play harmonised. I've never understood why something that's a 2 stroke penalty in stroke play is loss of hole in Matchplay.

Perhaps you're looking at it from the wrong angle. The loss of the hole penalty in matchplay was probably in place well before strokeplay came along. The problem then shifted from a situation where only the 2 matchplay opponents were affected to one where there was an effect on all other competitors - therefore a penalty of x strokes would apply. I agree that perhaps there should be a debate over whether the existing strokeplay penalties should apply in matchplay. I prefer things as they are (and, before you say it, I'm not resistant to change).

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Why can't we have the following rule....

Rule 4567.45 (part b) " in a club medal competition should 2 players drawn together in a singles match in a different club competition, or 4 players in a doubles competition decide before the medal commences that they wish to count their medal score as their score in the knockout competition then they may do so under the following conditions.
1. Provided all parties agree,
2. that each players score on each hole is deemed their score in the match (and used to determine the number of holes won/lost.
2. A - that a n/r is deemed as concession of the hole that it occurred on.
3. That all play is conducted under stroke play rules.
4. That all players agree that it is only a game, that no one will die if they decide to do this, that no advantage is gained by anyone save the players themselves that may find it hard to play 2 matches in a short time, that they are not professionals and therefore the only possible ready to play is to have fun, and enjoy the game
5. That golf remains a game where the object is to get the ball in the hole in the least number of shots.

Did you want to change the rules to suit you in your previous sport also ?

Did you complain when you couldn't have two results from one game in your previous sport ?

Rules are rules - either play the sport under those rules in competition or play another sport.

What next from people - how many rules should be ignored or changed because someone doesn't like them

 

[chrisd]

The

Perhaps you're looking at it from the wrong angle. The loss of the hole penalty in matchplay was probably in place well before strokeplay came along. The problem then shifted from a situation where only the 2 matchplay opponents were affected to one where there was an effect on all other competitors - therefore a penalty of x strokes would apply. I agree that perhaps there should be a debate over whether the existing strokeplay penalties should apply in matchplay. I prefer things as they are (and, before you say it, I'm not resistant to change).

I do understand what you say Rose, but I think the different penalties do make the rules harder for the average player to remember and invoke correctly and that the rules could easily be made clearer and easier by harmonisation

 

[rosecott]

5. That golf remains a game where the object is to get the ball in the hole in the least number of shots.

Except that in "proper" matchplay it's the scores on each individual hole that count. It's perfectly possible - and a regular occurrence - that you can win a match with a much inferior medal score compared to your opponent. That's the beauty of matchplay.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

Did you want to change the rules to suit you in your previous sport also ?

Did you complain when you couldn't have two results from one game in your previous sport ?

Rules are rules - either play the sport under those rules in competition or play another sport.

What next from people - how many rules should be ignored or changed because someone doesn't like them

You think all of the rules are as perfect as could be?

I don't see the harm in challenging why any rule exists. If there's no longer a good reason, I'd say there's a strong argument to say it should be changed.

 

[robert.redmile]

[SUB]soe[/SUB].....if no rules ever changed, nothing would ever change.

just because "it's the rules" doesn't make it right. Think of some of the previous "rules" in some countries during the war, or in Middle eastern countries now. Should we just say " it's the rules?!!"

ps Liverpool Phil - yes, on many occasions. Once we played a league match, and agreed to use the result to count as the result in the cup competition we were drawn in against the same team.

we also once decided that due to one team turning up late due to the coach breaking down to play 30 mins each way to ensure the Match could be completed in daylight.

We've also played 14 vs 14 due to a car crash affected one group of players, no ref in one game, and with shirts turned inside out to avoid a colour clash.

all agreed beforehand, all breaking the rules, and all because we all wanted to play for the love of the game.

as I said, if all parties agree, and it's played under stroke play rules, there is no possible reason to deny - other than, of course, "it's against the rules"

 

[Foxholer]

When someone poses the question as to what we'd like to change in golf rules I almost always come up with that I'd like to see the rules of Matchplay and stroke play harmonised. I've never understood why something that's a 2 stroke penalty in stroke play is loss of hole in Matchplay.

Because Matchplay is played Hole by Hole (some Scots even call it 'Hole on Hole' or similar) and Strokeplay (Medal) is played as a single 18-hole entity. This also suggests to me that Matchplay was the original form.