liability

[TommyMorris]

Hello all,

I was told today of an incident that happened on my course yesterday. I have currently got two squads each rebuilding bunkers, it so happens that they are working side by side at the present 2. In total there are 6 greenkeepers working in an area about 10 by 5. We have safety netting up and ppe is worn. Now these bunkers are at the front of a green and yesterday this golfer played a shot from about 150yds, the ball came over the fence and landed right in the middle of the 2 bunkers,how it missed everyone I do not know. NOT ONE SHOUT OF FORE! from himself or his playing partners. Once he got upto the ball the lads were expecting an apology or an expression of concern like oh that didnt come near anyone did it? What they got was absolute silence and he carried on with his game!

Why is it that golfers feel that they can hit all they like at members of staff in their firing line without shouting a warning cry of fore? If it had hit one of the guys does the golfer not realise he could be sued? I doubt very much that he would have any insurance to cover such a claim, seeing as the golf course in question does not make that kind of insurance part of the green fees.

Do you think for a second he would have hit, if it was another golfer in his firing line?

Sorry rant over, looking forward to hearing some views.
Tommy

 

[toonarmy]

I don't think it's restricted to greens staff mate! Many's the time I've had a ball whistle by me without a shout, or even the faintest of cries and then no hint of apology when you come close.

It's definitely one of my pet peeves (pitch marks being the other) and so unnecessary. One tip I can pass on is if you do ever hear a shout, don't duck away but instead look directly towards where the shout came from and up a bit. You'll see the ball coming if it is going to hit you and you can easily get out of the way.

Plus, it's exciting too!

 

[USER1999]

I would hesitate to use the word 'golfer' to describe this idiot.

 

[Boabski]

no excuses if they dont shout FORE or not ahint of warning they should get the BIG MIT no questions asked

 

[Atticus_Finch]

If a ball comes anywhere within 10ft of me without a shout I wait for the offender to come over and let him know all about it.
The last time it happened I was on the right edge of the 16th green and it was some Japanese guy missed my napper by about 18" from the 1st tee. God only knows what he made of my ranting but I'm pretty sure I made my feelings clear enough for him.
Welcome to Scotland mate, enjoy yourself, but if you try and decapitate someone on the 1st we'll let you know all about it!

 

[stevelockie]

If anything I'm guilty of shouting Fore too readily. Feel a bit of a prat when the ball lands 40 yards away, but I'd rather that than not shout

 

[birdieman]

Very common and not exclusive to greenkeeping staff. A playing partner walking aside me was hit full on the knee this year from a wayward drive- no shout, player claimed he didn't see us through the trees - he did.

On another note if you are the player and are looking at a shot where there are a bunch of people standing near where you want to land the ball who are making no effort to get out of the way or watch you hit that is very intimidating.
I appreciate you have a job to do but these people have also paid good money to play the course. When I'm in this situation I really want the greens staff to stop working and watch the ball. Notexcusing him for no 'fore' though, should always shout!

 

[HTL]

What a plonker! Do you know who he was? I reckon you should have a quiet word with the captain about his behaviour.

 

[madandra]

Solidarity brother. Everyone should be behind the green keeping staff .... well I was hardly going to be in front of him. Find the prat who has lost his voice and inform the committee of his identity.

 

[Viper]

As a seperate point, albeit vaguely related, I wonder why golf course maintenance staff do not wear hard hats with visors? Are they offered such as protective clothing? I am unaware of what "ppe" is and maybe such relates to protective clothing?

Whilst loutish behaviour from golfers is inexcusable, in the event of an accident causing injury,there is always a potential claim against the employer by the employee based on breach of statutory and common law duties of care.

In the 'nanny state' in which we now live a Court would quite likely consider such safety equipment as being reasonable and necessary. The question of whether or not padded safety jackets should also be provided is also potentially arguable as a point of law.

Yes, before someome says it - I can imagine how uncomfortable such protective equipment would be in warm weather. But, as my late grandfather used to regularly comment "The law is an ass!"

As an ex full-time lawyer I could not agree more.

the Viper

 

[DCB]

Viper,

PPE is Personal Protective Equipment, safety footwear, eye protection, coveralls, gloves hivis vests etc. It is the employers responsibility to have a safe system of work with the relevant PPE and control measures in place to make it possible for the work to be carried out in a safe manner.

I would have thought that the work on fairway or greenside bunkers would require a task specific risk assessment and based on the findings of the risk assessment, a series of control measures put in place which would reduce the likelyhood of an accident happening.

Allowing play into the green while only being protected by a bit of screening does not seem to be an adequate way of protecting the greenstaff.

But, the golfer should not have dodne what he did without shouting and appologising afterwards.

 

[TommyMorris]

A full site specific risk assessment with various control measures are in place and each squad hass a guy delegated to say heads up when golf approaches. It is not reasonable for greenstaff to down tools and walk 20 yards out the line of a shot for every single group that passes. The PPE includes gloves and a hard peaked hat to stop injury to the temple area which could be fatal.

My point is that it is common decency to shout fore, and I was wondering how common personal liability insurance is for golfers and if you hit someone YOU will be liable if PPE was worn or not.

Tommy

 

[DCB]

TommyMorris

I agree that the golfer is at fault here. But he shouldn't even have played to the green if there were staff working on the greenside bunkers. If work like that can't be done out of season, it would never get done. Idealy the hole in question should have been taken out of play to allow work to be carried out.

As far as liability goes, I've got personal liability in with my equipment cover, but after taking out a moving car's driver side headlight once, I can see the benefit of it!

Look at this link for the other way round, player suing the greennkeeper !
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/445771.stm

Scary what people will do nowadays

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Many of the more established forum members may recall my post back last year when I got hit in the back as I was putting my club in the bag after playing my second shot to the 3rd on my course (366 yard par 4).

I could only have been about 220 from the tee. The ball bounced once and hit me flush in the back knocking me to the ground and unable to get up for several minutes. I finally managed to recover after about 10 minutes and played on out of respect for my fellow competitors (it was a medal). I got "I never thought I'd get that far on the course" to which I wanted to deck him but could not stomach being the one banned so smiled politely.

In the clubhouse it must have been obvious to him that people knew what he had done because he came over to offer the most insincere apology (would you like lunch and a drink - all on me - I'm really sorry - I feel so bad etc).

I posted on here and asked whether I should sue for being hit (there was clear bruising and although it did not stop me working my back was sore for about 5 days) or whether I should bring him up in front of the committee.

Most agreed suing was not the way to go. Opinion was then split over whether it actually was an accident and to leave it or haul him up before the committee.

In the end I let sleeping dogs lie. He has tried to apologise again since and I smile politely and tell him to forget it but underneath I still want to bury my 9 iron into his skull. I'll be perfectly civil within the confines of the club but if I get drawn with him I have already made a conscious decision to withdraw from that particular medal (I can't be that hypocritical and spend 4+ hours trying to be polite).

The only upshot of all this is that I took out golf insurance which is something I should have done a long time ago, not only to protect my shiny sticks, bag et al but also to cover me for liability should I hit such a shot as descrived towards the greenkeeprs (although in my case there would be a bellowing FORE Left/Right - deleted as appropriate) and sincere and meaningful apologies.

Sorry for the length but I guess my moral is - make sure you are covered - accidents can and do happen

 

[Leftie]

Good link DCB but the date was 1999. Was the outcome of the case ever published or was it glossed over (see the club sponsers on the notice board)..........

 

[DCB]

Can't remember the outcome and cant seem to find any newsworthy story of the outcome of court case

 

[Viper]

Some very good points made. Thanks for the advice on PPE. As an ex conveyancing lawyer I never got involved with such issues, and am forensically ignorant apart from knowledge of relative basic principles of law.

When I last played (in the 1960s) I recall a golfer losing an eye after being hit by a golf ball and reputedly receiving £1,000. in compensation.

I personally believe that golf has become more dangerous with hitting distances having increased, possibly courses having become more crowded, and the wild 'golfers' we now see 'playing.'

I generally tend to be biased against excessive rules, legislation and control but in this case I believe that liability insurance should be made compulsory for all golfers.

If some idiot kills a young family man he should be made to pay, so that his family are financially adequately provided for.

Just my opinion. What are everyone elses views?

the Viper

 

[viscount17]

Both my partner and I were just missed in separate incidents on our last round. In neither case was there a call. The first was a wildly off-line drive and we were not visible from that tee. In the second I was in a depression and not visible, though the group behind knew we were still playing that hole as my partner would have been visible on the green.
I have rarely if ever heard a call made for a poor shot not played off a tee.
The onus must be on the player to call a wild shot irrespective of his seeing a potential victim (who's over the hedge?) if he cannot see the landing area.
Probably because at my level of inexperience I am still prone to 'loose' shots I prefer to wait for the greens staff to wave me through (they don't need to stop working just let you know that they are aware of you) before I let fly.

 

[TommyMorris]

In the case of the greenkeeper being sued, it was felt that it was not reasonable for the greenkeeper to know the location of every stone on his golf course...case dismissed.

 

[def]

way out of order by a so called golfer,but the ones on the range get my vote for being idiots