Lessons...a complete waste of money?

[leaney]

I believe the vast majority of pros out there are just lazy money grabbing con artists and I'll be happy to explain why.
There are hundreds of different swings on tour but pros tend to only teach and base their principles around one golf swing, at least in my experience anyway.

The PGA pros I have used since I started playing golf almost 2 years ago, had always tried to teach me in a 'Luke Donald' way. And by this I mean, they would always show me videos of how Luke Donald hits his shots, his posture, his impact position etc etc.

But...I'm not Luke Donald. I'm built completely differently for starters. I'm much stronger and bigger built than he is but I'm also less flexible. So why on earth would anyone try and get me to replicate what he does?

4 months ago, I stopped having lessons with the one trick ponies. Instead I decided to start from scratch because the 'Luke Donald way' wasn't working for me, in fact I was useless!

After months and months of hard practice, as well as watching countless Youtube videos, I'm now able to hit the ball well and consistently. And the biggest difference to my game? Having a flat (slightly bowed) wrist at impact. An obvious thing to have in your swing I hear you all cry. But I was never told this in my lessons and it never dawned on me until I saw a few Youtube clips that detailed this.

There are many different ways to create a successful golf swing, why teach someone only one swing when it might not be suited to them? For example, I've found 3 common ways to cock the wrists, one of which works very well for me (whilst it wouldn't for others).

So here's my question for those who have lessons. Does your pro try and teach you in one dimensional manner? Or do they realise that every one has their own swing.

 

[ScienceBoy]

I guess I am lucky, all the pros I have had teach around principles for club players, tour pros rarely get a reference.

I think finding the right pro is very important, I cannot say for sure there are con artists out there BUT with confidence I can tell you there are more pros LESS right for you than there are MORE right.

Find the right pro and your game will soar, my first pro pretty much taught me the game, my second kept me ticking over while I ws not a member of a club and my 3rd one at my new club is EVERYthing I could want, his teaching style perfectly suits my learning style.

Each of my pros has been slightly different but all have kept things very relevant to the game I play on the course.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

I believe the vast majority of pros out there are just lazy money grabbing con artists and I'll be happy to explain why.
There are hundreds of different swings on tour but pros tend to only teach and base their principles around one golf swing, at least in my experience anyway.

The PGA pros I have used since I started playing golf almost 2 years ago, had always tried to teach me in a 'Luke Donald' way. And by this I mean, they would always show me videos of how Luke Donald hits his shots, his posture, his impact position etc etc.

But...I'm not Luke Donald. I'm built completely differently for starters. I'm much stronger and bigger built than he is but I'm also less flexible. So why on earth would anyone try and get me to replicate what he does?

4 months ago, I stopped having lessons with the one trick ponies. Instead I decided to start from scratch because the 'Luke Donald way' wasn't working for me, in fact I was useless!

After months and months of hard practice, as well as watching countless Youtube videos, I'm now able to hit the ball well and consistently. And the biggest difference to my game? Having a flat (slightly bowed) wrist at impact. An obvious thing to have in your swing I hear you all cry. But I was never told this in my lessons and it never dawned on me until I saw a few Youtube clips that detailed this.

There are many different ways to create a successful golf swing, why teach someone only one swing when it might not be suited to them? For example, I've found 3 common ways to cock the wrists, one of which works very well for me (whilst it wouldn't for others).

So here's my question for those who have lessons. Does your pro try and teach you in one dimensional manner? Or do they realise that every one has their own swing.

I think your opinion is a bit ott.

Ive had 6 lessons in 3 seasons and not once has my pro tried to get me playing "the Luke Donald way".

Infact, I've never had a video lesson. I don't know the technical term for my type of swing, but I'd say it was a conventional swing by keeping the "V" intact and letting the wrists break naturally. All this done at a consistent tempo and a full follow through.

I hope my description hasn't confused you but in essence its a straight back and through swing.

HTH

 

[kid2]

So here's my question for those who have lessons. Does your pro try and teach you in one dimensional manner? Or do they realise that every one has their own swing.

Well here is proof of what i achieved in a little under 5 months....It was frustrating and im still learning but my game is coming on in leaps and bounds....He took my swing and worked with what i had only changing slight issues......The swing on the right was back in November...The one on the left is Wednesday night just gone....Take from it what you will but i think i made the right decision in going the lessons route in November......I got to 14 with no lessons and was loosing the ball left and right and got pretty sick of it so made the decision to get 8 lessons for the winter and put the work in for the start of this season......


[video=youtube;je1Du77m95c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je1Du77m95c[/video]

 

[One Planer]

So here's my question for those who have lessons. Does your pro try and teach you in one dimensional manner? Or do they realise that every one has their own swing.

The pro I use teaches me how to swing a club, in what he considers, properly. The first words he said to me were "Let's tear your swing apart to make it better. You will get worse short term, but long term will be better"

The second thing he said to me was "Any injuries or restrictions"

Since my first lesson, he has tweaked numerous things in my swing around what would be considered a text book swing. Starting at the beginning with posture and working through my back swing (Which is where I currently am).

Like you, I'm not build like Luke Donald. I'm 6ft and getting on for 15 stone.

He doe's however have me trying to hit specific positions through the swing. As an example. I used to swing the club behind me. So much so when the club was half way back it was behind my knees. This resulted in me having a very flat swing.

Now, I keep the club in front of me and have a much steeper swing plane as a result. Have I improved? Dramatically! And we haven't even started on the down swing yet!

The main reason I have improved is I have practiced, pretty much every night, the swing drills my pro gave me. It hasn't involved hitting balls, so I could get through the prescribed changes in our front room.

I must be doing over 100 repertitions of the drill daily. So between a fortnightly lesson over 1400 repertitions of the drill.

My old swing doesn't even feel like it was ever mine now, but it wasn't easy to get here. The changes, for me were tricky to impliment, but because I've practiced them, correctly, and constantly they are becoming second nature.

Most people who go to a pro, either struggle to understand what they've been shown and practice the wrong thing

or

Quite simply don't practice who the pro shows them. Them blame the pro, or the drill for their lack of practice.

The last one being they know and understand what the pro has showed them, but because the suggested change feels "weird" or un-natural, they go back to what they had previously the "worked" for them, again, blaming the pro or the change.

I'm not saying you're any of the above and, to a point, agree with you as regards to different builds playing the game but, IMHO, a good pro is well worth the money.

Edit:

Every lesson I've had has been video'd on his iPad and compared against the previous lessons video.

The least lesson I had he showed me a few clips of tour players and showed that although they were build differently and swung the clubs differently, they all had similarities in certain key parts of the swing.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

For lessons to work, you've got to be prepared to change and believe in your pro.

I can't understand the people who have lesson after lesson after lesson and still can't chip or hit a long iron etc.

 

[MadAdey]

I know where you are coming from leaney as I believe they are not so much con artists, but only understand the text book golf swing, so they try and teach you that. Like you said the tour pros all have different swings so why do club pros then try and teach everyone the same swing. Fortunately my pro is from the modern way of teaching. He looks at what you do and if it is not horrific he tweeks it to make it hit the ball better.

No pro would teach you to use my golf swing, but thanks to numerous injuries it is how I swing. But to be honest do I want it changing? Playing with GIBBO yesterday I was sat in the rough 240 yards from the green and proceeded to smash my 2i 10 yards short of the green. Is my swing text book, no not really. But despite my very flat backswing, I get into a good impact position that enables me to hit the ball long and straight.

Go find a pro that will teach you how to hit the ball rather than mimic the perfect golf swing. Because at the end of the day we are all different.

 

[duncan mackie]

So here's my question for those who have lessons. Does your pro try and teach you in one dimensional manner?

there was one that tried this, and without wishing to take the thread in a new direction, this was one plane and also seemed to incorporate some elements of S&T. I mention it because the impression I got, and others commented too, was that he came over as 'it's what I'm teaching' rather than who he was teaching (and how). This is fine if you select a pro on the basis of his capability to teach something specific; but not if you are looking for one to teach you appropriate to you.

so they do exist; but the other 3 I have used over the years were completely the opposite, incorporating most of the elements others have posted already (and which is probably 'by the book' for PGA pros

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Sorry it I think the OP is rubbish and a flawed argument. Any good pro will get you swinging correctly for you. Not how Donald or anyone else does it. My swing is unique, still has flaws but is stronger and I'm hitting it better. It's my swing and I own it and my pro and I are working to erase the major flaws and like an onion remove layer by layer until we get it as good as it can be. It will never look like any tour pro and nor do. Want it to

 

[In_The_Rough]

Bit OTT but there is a point where lessons will not help you anymore. You just have to go away and practice and play and get the technique embedded in. I have not had a lesson for over a year now and am playing as well as I have ever done. If it suddenly goes pear shaped then I will try to sort it myself first then if that does not work go see a PGA Pro. To say they are con artists is harsh to say the least IMO

 

[DAVEYBOY]

Sorry it I think the OP is rubbish and a flawed argument. Any good pro will get you swinging correctly for you. Not how Donald or anyone else does it. My swing is unique, still has flaws but is stronger and I'm hitting it better. It's my swing and I own it and my pro and I are working to erase the major flaws and like an onion remove layer by layer until we get it as good as it can be. It will never look like any tour pro and nor do. Want it to

You can't say his opinion is rubbish, if he's had lessons with a crap pro then fair enough. Unfortunately although you may not want to believe it there are crap pros out there and I've seen many in action and was lucky enough to never have lessons with any of them. There are people in every profession that are crap.

I know you look at your pro as a god like figure but the only way you will know how good he is will be at the end of the season and if you have hit your HCP target. If he drops 1 shot off your HCP will you say it was worth the amount of lessons and money you have payed him?

I'm not saying pros are crap and lessons are no good as I have them every now and then, 4 in total over 2 years so not as many as I should have had but I've taken some good things from them.

 

[leaney]

Sorry it I think the OP is rubbish and a flawed argument. Any good pro will get you swinging correctly for you. Not how Donald or anyone else does it. My swing is unique, still has flaws but is stronger and I'm hitting it better. It's my swing and I own it and my pro and I are working to erase the major flaws and like an onion remove layer by layer until we get it as good as it can be. It will never look like any tour pro and nor do. Want it to

You are entitled to your opinion but how is my argument flawed? Whilst my statement was never going be popular, I do believe that pros should not teach a one size fits all method, as I have been. I believe you should be treated as an individual - I don't see this as 'rubbish'.

 

[TheClaw]

I have had a few terrible lessons from different pros. Being good at something doesn't make you good at teaching it.

I fixed a lot of my flaws on my own but obviously could do with a pro giving me a look over. Had some great feedback from a pro at the golf show last week who I would happily pay to see...he lives in London though.

I'm very coachable...just need a coach

 

[Foxholer]

Leaney and Homer seem to be the opposite ends of the spectrum to me.

One has total belief in what his Pro is trying to teach him; the other total cynicism.

I can't agree with the 'con artist' opinion, but do agree that those that teach a rigid method are not my sort.

To me, the teaching/learning process is a partnership. If there is no agreement between the 2 parties about expectations etc, then it's more likely to simply be like a lecture to a lazy student - both go through the process, but nothing is absorbed/achieved. You need to decide for yourself who's fault that is!

I wouldn't have a second (or even a first) lesson from someone who wants me to swing exactly like Luke Donald (or any other Pro), though there may be elements if a swing that might be appropriate to mine - having seen it on video I doubt it though!

So please Mr Pro, let's meet, talk about what we want to, and can, achieve and please Mr Student, please accept that a Pro can't do immediate miracles, but can create the framework of what we've discussed, so you can do the rest of the 'fitting out' by practice.

 

[One Planer]

You are entitled to your opinion but how is my argument flawed? Whilst my statement was never going be popular, I do believe that pros should not teach a one size fits all method, as I have been. I believe you should be treated as an individual - I don't see this as 'rubbish'.

I said in my post Leaney, I see you're point and I'm sure Homer does to a point.

Thing is, and this is the way I see it (...bear with me).

If you were to learn a text book swing, because everything is "text book", after much practice, the swing becomes repeatable. If your swing breaks down, chances are you'll be able to find the culprit causing the issue(s).

People who are self taught, and I include myself in that bracket, have a swing that cures faults with faults. MadAdey is a typical example. He has previous injuries, but has a swing capable of getting him around the course effectively.

An example in my previous swing was my grip. My grip was really strong, 3.1/2 knuckles strong. That was because I didn't release the club (If I did it would pull everything left).

Another example was a small throw at the top. The reason for the throw was down to my swing being soooooo flat and taking the club away too much on the inside. I threw the club so I didn't get trapped into impact.

Would I have been able to self-diagnose this, Not a chance. Would any pro teach this..... No chance. It's nothing like repeatable.

As I said previous, if they try and get you swinging more "text book" it's easier to locate a fault.

Don't get me wrong there are some pro's out there who have the "my way or highway" attitude.

My pro is teaching me a text book swing. I asked him to. With moving away from the Stack & Tilt pattern I wanted to lean how to bring my right side in to play properly.

No doubt he could have made my swing work, but it wouldn't have been repeatable. Not ideal when consistancy is the name of the game.

I understand and hear what you say. Kevin Stadler has a different swing to Luke Donald. Luke had a different swing to Matt Kuchar. God knows what Furyk has, but it works.

You can bet all these guys have had professional instruction at some point through there career, even though all their swings are different.

My pro has taken me back to the beginning, starting with my grip, posture and how I take my club away and get to the top of the back swing.

I'l tell you the changes felt so alien to me in the beginning, shank, top thin were stock shots for a time. Now I'm about half a club longer, hitting it much higher and getting more spin on short irons than I ever have (I assume down do the steeper swing plane).

For me, lessons are well worth the money, but I have found a good pro.

 

[Wayman]

Pro I use doesn't try do anything like the OP
Sounds a bit daft everyone swings it differently

 

[full_throttle]

Leaney, when i went for my first lesson with a new pro, I specifically said I want him to work with what I already had, it's not perfect, but a few tweeks and the improvement is showing.

 

[Deleted member 1740]

All teachers teach differently. I know a lad who had quite a few lessons with a pro and he was trying to get him to swing like Furyk!

After he realised it wasn't working, he went to see my pro who I've recommended to a few and after 2 lessons he's striking the ball 1000% better.

He's even beat me once!

The soloution for the OP I think is to try and find a pro who he trusts/likes and go from there.

 

[hovis]

i kind off agree with the OP. i've gone through maybe 15 pro's to find one that has improved my game. just 1 big money pit. although i think the pro i have been with for a while is worth his weight in gold.

i have heard some rubbish from golf pro's and think ''how are they making a living from this'' but then they do so they must be doing something right

 

[Hobbit]

There are bad pro's and good pro's, just as there are good and bad students. And sometimes its a good pro and a good student but they just don't 'connect.'

One of the guys I play with has been playing for coming up 15yrs and is still off 28. He's been to a well recognised teaching pro on a number of occasions. Truth is, unless hell freezes over, he'll never be a good golfer.